Pegasus Podcast
@thepegasusapp https://www.thepegasus.app/🐴 Conversations with the movers and shakers of the global equestrian industry. Hosted by Pegasus founders Sam Baynes and Jen Tankel.
Pegasus Podcast
Scott Neuman, AQHA - Western horse shows and the challenges they face
Scott Neuman, Director of Competitions and International Memberships for the American Quarter Horse Association, offers a candid look at the evolving landscape of Western equestrian competitions in this revealing conversation.
Neuman shares his eye-opening research that no horse show manager reported being able to run a profitable event with fewer than 100 stalls booked—a threshold that many smaller venues simply cannot reach. This startling reality frames our discussion about why local shows are disappearing while major events continue to grow.
The conversation traces how America's shift from family farming to corporate agriculture has fundamentally altered Western horse sports. As people moved from rural to urban settings, horse ownership transformed from an affordable backyard activity to an expensive proposition requiring boarding facilities. This economic shift created a cascade effect: higher costs led to demand for better quality horses, which in turn drove competitors toward premium show venues with superior amenities.
Despite these challenges, Neuman highlights innovative solutions the AQHA has implemented, including popular ranch-style events that connect back to Quarter Horses' heritage, beginner divisions that allow weekend leasing, and versatility competitions that appeal to a broad audience. These adaptations are helping maintain the crucial "pyramid" structure of the sport, where a broad base of participants eventually feeds the upper echelons of competition.
Perhaps most fascinating is Neuman's insight into Western riding's international growth, particularly in Mexico, Brazil, and surprisingly, parts of Asia. The "Yellowstone effect" has reinvigorated global interest in ranch activities and Western horsemanship, creating opportunities for American expertise abroad.
Whether you're a competitor, show manager, or equine business owner, this episode delivers crucial perspective on where Western horse sports have been and where they're headed. Listen now to understand the market forces shaping the industry's future.
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I did some informal research last year. I traveled around to different parts of the country, talked to show managers and stuff and my big question was how many stalls do you need to sell? How many stalls do you need to reserve to make this show financially viable? The answer was between 100 and 250 stalls, depending on the facility. Nobody told me they could have a horse show that was going to be profitable, or even break even with less than 100 stalls.
Sam Baynes:Hey everyone, welcome to this episode of the Pegasus Podcast. In this episode we're talking to Scott Newman, who is the Director of Competitions and International Memberships for the American Quarter Horse Association. In this episode we dive deep into the challenges that the Western horse sport market is facing and we compare those with some of the challenges we see in the English market. More specifically, we're looking at why some of the smaller, more rural competitions are drying up and why the larger international shows are really growing in popularity and size. So if you have business in the Western 4 sport market, this is the perfect episode to kind of understand some of the things we're dealing with now and where the industry is going All right. Without further ado, let's get into it. All right, scott, thank you very much for joining us today. For our listeners, so that they can put everything we say today into context, do you want to tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Scott Neuman:Yeah, so I live here in Amarillo, texas, and work at the headquarters of American Quarter Horse Association and I run the show department and the international department here at the American Quarter Horse Association.
Sam Baynes:Fantastic. And when you say the show department and the international department, is that basically running all show management internationally, including domestic, or are those two separate roles?
Scott Neuman:So they cross over probably at least 80%, 80% of our, a good deal of our international business and our international affiliates do competitions and have and produce competition. So it's that. And then the show department domestically yes, we sort of oversee the approval and the processing and the results portion of 2200 shows.
Sam Baynes:All right, fantastic. We've worked quite a bit and quite closely over the last couple of years with the APHA, the American Paint Horse Association, and I know, for example, that they have a person in Paris whose job is to literally grow interest in the paint horse as a breed and their events, as well as grow their membership internationally. So when you say that you kind of oversee the international portfolio, is that the sort of work you're doing, or is it literally more like show management and approving licenses for shows that take place outside the United States?
Scott Neuman:No, it's more like what you referenced. It's growth promotion, any activity that we could, growth promotion, any activity that we get. Growth promotion, education. All of those are sort of focuses of our international. And of course, breeding we do a lot of. We promote breeding internationally as well. It just so happens that a good chunk, a greater ratio, internationally compete in all sorts of different events than they do domestically of our owners right, all sorts of different events than they do domestically of our owners right, domestically we have a big group that competes and does shows. But we have also a huge group that does other stuff with their horses where internationally, of course you know they do other stuff but a good chunk of our international population does do horses. But yeah, my job is to go promote and raise awareness and interest in quarter horses of all varieties.
Sam Baynes:Right, fantastic, all right, so, all right. So like I want to come back to the international park because I find that really interesting, but just to start off, let's talk about the domestic side of things. So, as head of show management, I assume that means that your core focus is everything from like warrant, like being responsible for how the American Quarter Horse Association is harboring competition and the continued competition and making life easier through to like approving license applications to run AQH shows, et cetera. Is that correct?
Scott Neuman:That is correct. Yes, so we, that's a. So there's I mean there's a whole bunch of functions to the show department, but that is one of them that we do the approval process and then of course we do the approval and certification of all of our officials as well judges, stewards, all of that stuff. Yes, and try to, as you said, producing a horse show easier, better, more efficient in any way that we can domestically. And then the other part of our domestic role is the American Quarter Horse Association.
Scott Neuman:We produce five championship shows for our competitors. We have our level one competitors which used a long time ago was called Novice. We have a championship show in Ohio for the East and Las Vegas for the West. Then we have our Versatility Ranch Horse Championship. We have that here in Amarillo. And then we have our Youth World Championship Show in August in Oklahoma City and then our big amateur and open competitor World Championship Show is in November in Oklahoma City. So we're working as support for all of the domestic shows that are produced and then we also have those five championship shows to produce.
Sam Baynes:Okay, fantastic, all right. So now that we kind of understand your areas of responsibility and therefore, like the breadth of insight that you have to the different aspects of AQHA's shows, let's jump into some of the challenges that you know Quarter Horse shows face, as well as just the equestrian industry at large. People who listen to our podcast regularly will know that we spend a lot of time talking about the English side of equestrian competitions and we have had podcasts with people who do rodeo and do Western events. But I'd love to hear from someone who's at the top of essentially the largest Western organization in the world kind of, you know, essentially the largest Western organization in the world kind of how you guys think about the challenges at like an existential or systemic level that the Western horse show business is facing.
Sam Baynes:So straight off the bat, I know that on the English side, one of the major issues that the equestrian industry, the show industry, is facing is that the population of staff is aging. The average person who runs a horse show on the English side is over the age of 60 years of age. The average secretary who helps run those shows is over the age of 55, 60 years of age, and then all the volunteers are like, potentially even over the age of 65, 70. And so it's getting harder and harder for the shows to find volunteers to make the shows financially viable. And I know I've spoken to a lot of show managers myself directly who are continuing to run shows because they're worried that if they retire the show will just die because they can't find anyone to basically take over it. So I suppose is that as that kind of as that is like your frame of reference? What is that? Is that same issue playing out in the Western world, or is it a bit different because you guys have some different business?
Scott Neuman:models. I think that is absolutely one of our challenges that we face. We face that on the production of shows. And then the same thing, you know, we support our state affiliate associations and they're struggling with the same amount. A number of things have happened, right, and probably one of the biggest things is as our shows become, as we innovate and we become more complex, to produce a show we have more disciplines, more stuff going on Subsequently, running those shows becomes intricately more difficult as well.
Scott Neuman:You have more technical prowess, right, and so it's not something that anyone can do on a volunteer basis really. And so, like you said, those managers thing that anyone can do on a volunteer basis really. And so, like you said, those managers, those secretaries who run those big shows, they have all this expertise and I think that maybe for a long time, that was ignored as a real viable way to go as a career, right, and I think we're seeing more and more of that. Actually, we're seeing a positive effect, sort of that way. We're seeing more and more young people. Now, don't get me wrong, we're still suffering, as you are, but we're seeing more and more people come along and I want to embrace that and they understand.
Scott Neuman:Aqha Lead and another one called AQHA Emerging Leaders their job. They identify these up-and-coming stars right and we try to focus them. Of course, the problem with up-and-coming stars is they're stars all across their life, right? So with those kind of people, they have more choices and we just have to make sure we, you know, show the viability of this as a career and the enjoyment of it as well.
Sam Baynes:Okay, so you use the word viability, and that's something that I like to talk about a lot. So when you say viability as a career, do you mean viability in the sense of they can earn a good income, or do you mean viability in the sense of horse show running, western events and your AQHA events are financially viable enough that you can earn a decent profit?
Scott Neuman:expertise to start shows and promote shows. There's a great business opportunity there. And then there's also a great viable opportunity for the people who work at those businesses, right From your officials to your support staff to your office, all of that management staff you know those are. So, yes, the viability. The viability for me is two ways right. You can make a good living, you can make a good profit off promoting and producing a good show and, of course, the last part of the viability is a real enjoyment of it. You know it's like everything. If you get to work in an industry that you like, it makes things a lot easier and for a lot of horse people, I think it affords them that they can. You know, they can stay connected with the horse show industry, whatever portion of our industry they like, and they can have a hardworking but very financially fruitful and enjoyable life.
Sam Baynes:Yeah, absolutely so. The reason I was kind of asking you the financial viability is, if I like, strip this back to its most basic element. When I look at it on the English side of the fence, you have major hunter-jumper circuits and major hunter-jumper shows. They are the moneymakers. If you have a major facility like WEF, hits, wec, whatever it is, 90% of their income comes from hunter-jumper horse shows and then the other 10% are a smatter of different disciplines in there. But for everyone else who runs a more smaller regional show, even if it's a smaller regional licensed show the show managers that I work with if you look at their books, the average P&L they're making like it might be a $40,000 to $50,000 show and they're making $2,000 profit on it. And that assumes that everything goes to plan and there's not some unforeseen costs and that also assumes they get enough entries to basically cover their fixed costs. Which ultimately, for me, basically, if I think about it from the perspective of I'm a young person and I'm looking at running these shows, and if I'm an older person looking to get someone young to come in and take on the responsibility of running these shows, and if I'm an older person looking to get someone young to come in and take on the responsibility of running these shows. What is the financial incentive for the young person, considering that there is so much work that goes into it and there is sort of a lot to learn?
Sam Baynes:Coming back to the financial viability point, one thing that I harp on about a lot is that we really need to figure out how to make horse shows more profitable, and we can do that by either cutting costs, by reducing the skill required for the staff required to run a show which means that you don't need to pay a premium for professional staff and flying them in and putting them up in hotels and travel and all that sort of stuff and we need to increase the revenue opportunities that shows have. So examples of that would be, you know, making it easier for brands to be able to find sponsor and vendor at horse shows. Making it easier for horse like maybe there's something else that horse shows could sell that you know brings in more profit, either from spectators or whatever it is streaming rights, advertising, all that sort of stuff.
Sam Baynes:And on the English side of the fence, there really isn't that much of a public discourse talking about this. It's kind of like everyone's just kind of being like you know, it's always kind of figured itself out. We'll just keep this thing going. So I suppose my question, after all that is have you seen a similar do you guys think about? Do you have the same sort of problem set in the Western world, and are you guys thinking about it the same way of like we have this, we need to solve this financial viability issue, or is the Western world, because it's structured differently, not really facing that challenge?
Scott Neuman:No, we face that challenge all the time, all the time. And our smaller shows are obviously they're struggling the most stuff that. So you know, just for instance last year, I know the Hunter Jumpers, they're a little different. They move into a facility, right, and they stay there for some time and show. Our shows still are at different locales all over the place, right. So facilities for our shows is a huge deal and, like you were talking about, you know the chance to make the show more profitable, right, depending on the facility where you go. You know we can and this and the contract that you negotiate Shows can make money off of the camping facilities. Some shows can make money off of the bed and shavings off the fee that's sold there. Certain things, you know they negotiate it differently and then you know, of course, then your job is to produce a show that's worthy of the people to attend.
Scott Neuman:But I did want to tell, like, just like what you were talking about, I did some informal research last year. I traveled around to different parts of the country to talk to show managers and stuff and my big question was how many stalls do you need to sell, how many stalls do you need to reserve to make this show financially viable? And when I say viable, I'm not talking about a big profit because just sort of a hang in there, right? Not talking about a big profit because just sort of a hang in there, right? And the answer was that between 100 and 250 stalls, depending on the facility. Nobody told me they could have a horse show that was going to be profitable, or even break even with less than 100 stalls. 100 stalls, you know, on a local level is a pretty good show. Yeah, and so we're really seeing.
Sam Baynes:Yeah, we're really seeing. If you have a hundred horses, how many entries would that be? I mean assume. I mean assume two, three classes.
Scott Neuman:I mean, that would probably translate into three or four, yeah, yeah, three to 400 entries, 400 entries or so, yep, and so it, you know, and those shows are having a. That's just to cover the costs, really, of those shows, right, and depending where you're at and availability, you know, I apologize for getting off track here a little bit, but what for us and when I say us, the Western show industry, and you combine that with professional roping, professional barrel racing, all of that stuff right now, it's just a ripe opportunity out there. If someone has the seed money to build facility, a real, workable facility, not a fancy facility of 400 to 500, stall to arena kind of facility that would, it could rent all the time Really, and that's the other thing you were saying. You know, once shows go by the wayside, it's hard to reinvigorate them, and in our industry it's not only hard to reinvigorate them, but you lose your calendar spot at the facility and you can't get back in, right, okay, so let me unpack this for a second.
Sam Baynes:So in the English world and maybe this is just a lack of understanding on my front on the way in which you guys are structured in the English world typically the scarce resource is that the show managers have dates with the United States Equation Federation that give them like, secure your date, and then they have the zones of exclusion around that to make sure they're not competing for entries. The facility is relatively irrelevant, it's about having the dates. Are you saying that in the Western world the dates isn't so important. It's more about access to facilities and people aren't scared about losing their dates with the AQHA. They're scared about losing the routine booking date with that facility manager.
Scott Neuman:Yeah, I think that that has turned into the primary focus. So we have the same thing though we have, you know, we secure dates for horse shows going year to year to year. Right, we secure those dates. They have what we call priority dates. And then the same thing we have mileage rules where you can't have another approved event within so many hundred miles of an event.
Scott Neuman:Like you said, to make it a little more fair, two places could have horse shows at the same time. But what a QHA does is we take, let's just say, Oklahoma, for instance. Oklahoma will at one time or another have produced one time or another 10, 15 years ago, produced 80 shows a year. Let's say those shows all have numbers. Well, the market dictates. Now Oklahoma has 30 shows during the year and we still have 50 Oklahoma show numbers on the shelf. So if you want to come in and be a private producer and you want that, you come to us and you ask and then you combine that availability of that show and then, if you can go, hunt out a facility and a date, we'll make it work. Interesting out a facility and a date will make it work, so interesting being the trend that it has then that we have less shows now, but bigger shows there are in most states anywhere. If you want to have a show, we've got a show. We have a show number sitting on the shelf that you could use fascinating, right, isn't that?
Sam Baynes:wow, talk about a complete opposite of the English problem. Interesting, okay, so as far as the facilities go. So why? I mean, is there a certain when you say there's a lack of facilities and there's a real opportunity here for an entrepreneur to come in, build a facility and then rent it out routinely? It's not so much the ring, it's not the parking, et cetera. Is it really just like the number of stores available that is the limiting factor? Like why doesn't, why don't? People who own private properties with their own private ring? Is there any reason, like is there any? Is there anything inhibiting them from just being able to, like, start renting it out?
Scott Neuman:no, not at all. You know we, we I say our, our show producers out there, independent show producers, they can rent out. A lot of shows are, you know, rented out from private facilities all the time. So you know our, our, our profit structure are, are on in the quarter horses and and those other things. Like I was saying, the roping and all that and some of that is it's folk, they're not focused.
Scott Neuman:We derive income from different parts and so you know one of the, obviously you know if you're a professional, you make money with board training, sales commissions, show fees and then the one that in our industry is very important is mileage. So when these horses get hauled to shows and so you know, I know when at the 100 Jumpers you go up to, you know the place in Traverse City or you go to WAC and you're there for six or eight weeks or whatever Our shows are, and the competition between the shows makes it a mileage deal right. Every weekend our trainers want to load their horses in the trailers, however many they can, and haul to somewhere and the mileage helps, really helps promote, it really helps. It's a dual, obviously it's a double-edged sword. It makes it so that trainers can make enough money to keep going. But of course, at the same time that is passed along to customers, so it becomes a great expense too.
Sam Baynes:Right, okay, on a percentage basis, though, though. What percentage of the income is based on mileage? Like is it? Is it? Is it so significant that, um, a trainer would choose a show further away in order to get that mileage, versus going to something local?
Sam Baynes:yes, so well, and of course so I suppose systemically that's excellent for the sport because it means that the riders and trainers are financially incentivized to diversify which events they attend and travel to participate, so you don't really need to worry about being restricted to only know competition at the local pool of competitors.
Scott Neuman:That's right and so. But to go back again, you know we're seeing our however, you want to say it, our top end trainers. Right, they're going. As I was saying, there's less, less shows, but they're bigger shows. So they're going to those bigger shows and they want to go there, they want to face the stiffer competition, they want the prizes and and everything that goes with it.
Scott Neuman:The problem it for us, as our association, is we of course need to foster the places which are most conducive for taking beginners and, uh, people who you know, people who are just introduced to the sport and who don't want to pay a $1,500 mileage bill to go somewhere and they would rather go to three weekend shows right near them to get going. So we need, on our end, we struggle with making sure we can help and try to allocate resources enough that we can help those small shows keep going and, you know, at the same time, certainly not ignore the top end of our business, because that's that's so very important to us. So it's really it's a catch-22, right and we want those. But as our, as our, you know, everything obviously is constantly mutating and changing. We don't have a lot of competitors anymore and it's all tied together with the cost. Who are are ready or willing to go to a facility that is less than lovely, right and? And so then that becomes a factor as well.
Sam Baynes:So you know. So that was that was that was going to be my follow-up question, which is okay. So people are willing to travel, or trainers are financially incentivized to go to faraway shows because the mileage bill helps them, but you still have the local riders who don't want to pay that mileage bill, who want to go to a local show. You made the comment that the pattern or the trend that you're seeing in the market is that the larger shows are getting more entries and the smaller shows are kind of disappearing. Is that the larger shows are getting more entries and the smaller shows are kind of disappearing? What is the source of that change? And it might be more than one source. You mentioned the idea that maybe writers are just getting more picky and they don't want to spend money on a show unless it's a prestigious show. But are there other things that are contributing to that growing divide?
Scott Neuman:a secondary or third cause is the cost of doing business and having a horse right and having a horse it all goes back to if you go back to our what you would glory days of showing, when every domestic affiliate had 30, 50 shows and they were all well attended and everything what happened then was many, many, many people lived rurally and they had their own horse and they could have their own horse and keep their horse at a minimal cost. As the trend moved from a small family farm to corporate farming and people went to urban areas, then you had to start paying to keep your horse somewhere and paying all of the costs right, and you didn't have access to your horse 24-7. It was away from your farm. You had to go there. So then what happened is if you're going to have a horse and you're going to spend whatever $800 a month, $1,000 on board and another one, you're going to have a horse that warrants that. You're going to need a nice horse and those horse prices go up and subsequently those horses. That and the people then who could afford to have those horses are much more urban dwellers. They don't live on the farm, they don't have a horse in their backyard and you know the cost goes up. So then our market starts doing two things it starts shrinking because not as many people own horses.
Scott Neuman:And the people that do own horses, especially for reasons for competition, own better and better and better horses. And, as we both know, the higher the quality of your horse, right, the bigger the dollar and it all goes together. It all is sort of melts together with the same thing. If you have a really, really expensive horse, you don't want to take it to a crappy show facility and show it. You don't want to take, you don't want to take your uh, really really expensive sports car and drive it on crappy dirt roads, right.
Scott Neuman:And so then those one-time weekend shows that were held at your local fairgrounds and you could rent those fairgrounds for 500 bucks a day for everything no one wants to go to those anymore because they they they're used to going to places where the footing's great, the camping's great, all those things, right. So it's a real trend and for for us you know we continually look at not reversing that trend. You can't, but you have we're having to figure out a way to make introductory horse owning and introductory horse competitions affordable somehow so that that young person, whoever it is wants to do, it can get a taste of it. We know, once they get a taste and they and, and they're hooked right, then they can, then they make the financial decisions according right, so they can this whole, they can pursue this passion. But we saw so many trends change and we're really uh, you know it's cause we, the whole, if you want to call it, migration away from local agriculture has hit us hard and continues to do so.
Sam Baynes:I mean this might sound very stupid coming from me, but I do. Often I have spoke about on previous podcasts that there's an inextricable link between agriculture and Western equestrian that the English side doesn't seem to have and it's kind of like you know they're inextricably linked but it's kind of hard to explain what that link is and in that excellent cause and effect summary that you just gave about where this problem comes from. At the end of the day, it's fascinating. The kernel of that link is that the history of Western horse sports is that there are typically ranch horses that participated and as less people farm the land and get moved towards corporate farming, you have less ranch horses and with less ranch horses you have more boarding in the Western world, which is very common in the English world.
Sam Baynes:Boarding inflates costs. Costs mean that less people can afford to have a horse or they can't afford to have a horse and compete, and so there's less supply. Less supply means less demand for the local shows, which means that the local shows go away and only those who can afford the expensive horse and the board and the travel and those who spend that money they want to go to the big shows. That's, that's. Um, that is exactly. That's quite a, that's quite a pickle you've got to unfold here. So what is the? As you guys have sat around and war-gamed this and brainstormed solutions and stuff, is there anything in the works or something that the AQHA is doing now to try and you know, at least try and solve this problem a little bit?
Scott Neuman:Yeah, so I mean obviously, maybe 15, 20 years ago we introduced ranch-type events at our horse shows ranch riding, the horse performs some maneuvers that would be done on a ranch, ranch trail, some other things. And we have a separate competition called Versatility Ranch Horse, where there's some work with cattle involved and so not coincidentally, I don't think, because the lure of our breed has always been inextricably linked to that kind of ranch using horse right those are the most popular classes at our horse shows, and so we've seen a great resurgence of entries at the horse shows based on those classes. So that's one thing we also have really promoted. My coworker, karen, works here, she works with her. Her department is ranching and we try to promote, you know anything, those ranch. You know, back in those days, as I was telling you also, you know you didn't, there were many, many, many ranches across the country that would produce 100, 200, 250 foals a year. Right, and with the market the way it is, those ranches don't do that anymore. It costs more to register those foals and there has to be a market for them too, so, so anyway, that department does a lot to sort of promote that, that kind of breeding, that kind of that kind of model right.
Scott Neuman:So we've done that biggest division at our shows and I don't believe this is different than that the hunter jumpers is our level one, which essentially is a novice, which is beginner. So in our beginner level one, whether it's in the open division meaning, meaning beginner horses, but in our youth and amateur, we also allow people in those to show on a weekend lease if you will. And so if I have a nice horse or whatever and you have kids or a wife that wants to show, they can ride my horse for a weekend and compete in our level one competitions. So we've made it so that in that respect you you don't have to own your horse. Now, as you move up the levels you do have to own your horse. I know other associations have, you know, toyed with the leasing and this and that and stuff and then, and it's always so when you you know, you know enough about horse shows and competitions that as soon as you initiate an idea, there's a faction that is working around it to try to reap the benefits, legal or illegal, from it. Right and so. But the leasing thing is wildly popular for us and it allows people who have beginner kids or spouse or whatever, who want to learn to ride to show in that division without owning their horse. So that's a real step in the right direction.
Scott Neuman:As you well know, I think one of the to me, one of the writing the writing is on the wall, for I'm sure you're through the English something they have the Western division is the IEA, the Interscholastic Equestrian Association, where these kids can go and pay a monthly fee and compete, and so I call that shared ownership. Right. I really see the lure of shared ownership which you know, on my international travels I see some of that. When I was in Japan, we went to a horse show that they had there and the horse show was at a riding club which was essentially a country club, but instead of the golf course was the big lure, it was the equestrian facility.
Scott Neuman:Right and right there they had different levels of membership. If you were, you know, whatever kind of member you were at the country club, you got two lessons a week, and if you were another kind of member, you got five lessons a week or whatever, and you shared your horse with one person. And if you were the top level, you know, and you could afford it, then you had your own horse. So if the trend for the cost of doing business and the trend of cost of competing continues to go that way, uh, I have no doubt that we can adapt to accommodate it. I, I don't have a doubt at all, but I that that looks rather like an inviting um avenue for us, so that you don't have to be a zillionaire to stay in our sport.
Sam Baynes:Fantastic yeah, um, do you have a hard stop at the top of the hour?
Sam Baynes:No, I'm good, okay, cool, um, okay, fascinating, so right, so okay.
Sam Baynes:So something I do talk about a lot is that you know every institution, whether it's I used to be in the military, and this is kind of where this mindset comes from every institution, every sport, every, you know every. Every market that involves people, whether it might even be like a population period, for example. It all has to be a pyramid. You have to have a thick base, because as time goes on, people drop off and if you invert that base, you run into a massive problem where you haven't got enough people coming in from the bottom to sustain the top of levels and then things basically crumble and die. So it sounds like, in your guy's situation, almost as a very positive silver lining to the cloud here, which is that this issue of what's causing the smaller shows to dry up is that you don't have any lack of interest at the bottom of the pyramid, because when you do offer classes and you do offer more versatile class structure for the amateurs, they're the ones that fill up first and they fill up the most by the sounds of things.
Sam Baynes:So it sounds like the real solution in all of this is it's basically a two-pronged solution. It is how do we provide a greater service opportunity for the amateurs to be able to compete and then how do we figure out how to make local shows more profitable so that the local show managers are financially incentivized to create the shows that the customers are willing to enter, which is essentially like a cold start from the two-sided marketplace. But you know, if the so I suppose, if I basically extrapolate that out and think about, like you know, low-hanging fruit for the AQHA, I suppose, doing a lot of education and marketing to get as many local show managers to basically try running shows for the first time, because you know the demands there from the local writers. So it's more about how do you get the organizers to try it and then that will create the shows and once they basically run one, you know there'll be enough demand to then basically fill it up and then make it a sustainable business for that show manager.
Scott Neuman:Yeah, that's exactly right.
Scott Neuman:The only caveat to that I would say is, at the very bottom of our pyramid, what we have to ensure that stays stable not stable but dynamic, hopefully, and it's rope horses or barrel horses or ranch horses or Western pleasure horses. We have to have that ready supply, and part of what drove our prices up was that when you, as you saw, when that ship moved right and all of those local state breeders in whatever state you want to pick, went away, then there's other breeders, and so we've also moved that way. You know we have a number of breeders of multiple stallions and they do big business. But that bottom layer for us is breeders to make sure we've got enough horses to go around in an affordable manner. That's the other thing, right, so anyway. But then you're absolutely right, after that is our the owners and the youth and amateurs right there. That is it, and so those are the pivotal pieces for us and they feed the entire entire top part shows, right, like you were saying too and not to be outdone by our show managers out there.
Scott Neuman:We have show managers out there, show owners, producers, managers who are so innovative and so amazing that they're creating these products for people to go to, that they wanna go to right.
Scott Neuman:And so you know I'm a huge believer in the free market system and that's why I mentioned before I have no, I have no, I have no worry that we'll adapt and make it work. The problem is whether you adapt ahead of it or you adapt by necessity. So to those things we've already within our show department here we've made many adaptations where a show manager can have all breed classes and quarter horse classes collectively, where we have a thing called a special event they don't have to hold a full slate of classes area where you know there's a bunch of kids who ride whatever barrel racers, pull benders. You can have a put all your eggs in that basket and produce a really nice barrel racing, pull bending, horse show or something. So lots of different models for our show managers and stuff to choose from. We've tried to be innovative so that they can accommodate whatever the crowd based on region and and interest, whatever they can do to make it work.
Sam Baynes:Interesting, interesting, so okay, so talk to me, tell me a little bit more about the groundworks of the pyramid, the breeding. So this is something I hadn't really, I suppose, appreciated in the past. So what is the market dynamics of the breeding market? You said that you made the comment that we've got to figure out there's enough horses to go around, but also that they're affordable. And so, as a breed association, the what has historically been the case and what are the trends in the? What are the trends in the availability and affordability of quarter horses as a market and like, where's it heading? And like, explain that to someone who's never even like considered that before.
Scott Neuman:well, you know, as, as you look at it from the breeding end of it, you know we allow the Quarter Horse Association to ship cooled semen, frozen semen. You can do multiple embryo transfers on a mare during a year, and so, because I can live in Alaska and have my mare at home and I can breed to the best stallions in the business, the very best right, they'll ship it and they'll no problem, and you don't have to have your married stallion together at all. And so what that means is that the quality of our breed, regardless of discipline, is skyrocketed. The horses are absolutely fabulous, and whether that, like I said, whether that's a cutting horse or a rope horse or a Western pleasure horse, the quality of horses is superb.
Scott Neuman:The inherent problem there is not everyone can afford a superb animal, right. That's the great conundrum for us. You know, so many of our horses belong in a window on Rodeo Drive and we still have a lot of horse enthusiasts who want to shop at TJ Maxx and Ross. So you know, and me too, and we don't want to shut them out. That's the worst thing that could happen to us. That's just what you were talking about. That's the second layer of our pyramid. We need those right and so yeah, to that end.
Sam Baynes:That's a conundrum, it's a great conundrum for us is there a world image and I'm just talking out of my ass here, so if I'm like completely way off base, tell me, is there a world in which you could bring into more of the sports or more of the disciplines, almost like a d scoring system that bowel racing uses, where, like you know, you can be 1d and still be a champion, as opposed to needing to compete against the full stack, and that can allow people with lower quality horses for lack of of a better term that are more affordable, to still be champions?
Scott Neuman:Yeah, so we've toyed with that a lot. You know and looked at it so far. What we have right now are levels. We have a rookie division and that's you know. The restrictions are on how much success you've achieved. Then level one, two and three. We have those in place. So as far as the leveling goes, we have done that.
Scott Neuman:Now the D system is interesting, like you said, because it's just it's a little difficult to incorporate fairly into scored classes, right? So let's just imagine you're comfortable with the hunter jumper world. Let's imagine you know a hunter derby and the first place horse has a 92 and the second place horse has a 91 and so on, and the fourth place horse has an 88. And then you say to your d system okay, we're going to take the high score minus six points and whatever give it. So you've got your 92. You take six points off of there and your next place is your 86. Let's just use whatever, right? And there are some high scoring horses in the 86 and a half 87, all that range that get no prize. Um, and I know that's it's comfortably adopted in the speed events and stuff. But I think when you talk about using the d system or a graduated system in scored classes. It's a very it's a slippery slope right and and then, of course, the biggest thing of all is court systems are inherently flawed because they're they're judged right from a subjective or whatever kind of point of view. You want to talk about Barrel racing. The clock doesn't lie and the clock can't lie no matter what you do to it. Judging is not quite the same, and so obviously that's not a that's not a commentary on our judges or anything. It's just it makes it a little harder system to adopt, and so that's why we've went to the leveling system right Now. Our leveling system is a certain way so that it's built in there.
Scott Neuman:If your kid was level one this year and they win and they have a great year, they'll be level two next year and so on. If they're there for three years or whatever. After a while. If they win and they have a great year, they'll be level two next year and so on. If they they're there for three years or whatever, after a while, if they quit or they come back or whatever, they can roll back into level one again and start. So we have. I guess the point I'm trying to make is we've, we continually are faced with the conundrum of making sure the most number of our exhibitors can be satisfied with the experience right. And you and I both know we just we live in a world where, um, there is a much, much, much lower value, put on the hard knocks of life and paying your dues and persevering, than there is in getting a prize. And I mean that's a fundamental difference that we work with all the time right, and so you have to cater to your crowd Totally totally Interesting, all right, okay.
Sam Baynes:Well, I think that pretty much. I think we've covered most aspects now of the challenge of the domestic side I mean for me personally, without talking too much about our company, pegasus, and what we do. But we basically build software to run horse shows and the key thing that we focus on in everything that we design is how do we unlock value for the show manager? Our goal is, if you think about us as a company, we have two customers we have the show managers and then we have the writers. We want to give the writers the best user experience possible. We want to increase efficiencies. We want to make them feel like they can see the sport, feel the sport, participate in the sport and know what's going on and when and never miss an opportunity. As far as the show managers go, who's our core customer? Because they actually build their businesses on top of our software. What we focus on a lot is how do we make this as easy as possible to use, that we drastically cut the skill required to help support and staff. This show idea is, rather than having to fly in professional staff from all over, if you're a local show, you can have redundancy in your workforce by having a local workforce that you might pay cheaper because you don't have to fly them in. So rather than paying them a few thousand bucks to work out for the weekend, maybe you can get someone who you pay $200 for the weekend or $200 a day, for example, and you have five of them locally trained on the software, because it's so easy to use that if one calls in sick there's someone else available, so that helps cut the operating costs. And then on the revenue side, how do we bring more revenue into a show without price gouging the writers? So, for example, we've built tools that allow brands to basically sponsor horse shows and stuff and it also allows this horse show to monetize a horse show for longer. But the idea here is, if we can make it easier for staff to help run a show, make it easier for shows to be more profitable, then you create a financial and operational incentive. That is okay. Now I can run a horse show as like a profitable business because my margins are good enough that now I'm coming to Scott and I'm going, I see you've got some extra numbers on the shelf for licenses. Can I actually? I've got one. Can I get five Because I've decided I can run five shows rather than just one, because I can scale this business model and I can make it work, and so that's kind of like how we're looking at helping the industry. But there's this whole other thing with the breeding that I hadn't really taken into account. That now I need to figure out, I need to start really thinking about how we can help solve that problem or help contribute to solving that problem. That's interesting, right? So that's the domestic industry.
Sam Baynes:Before we finish up, let's just quickly talk about the international market. So Western horse sports is almost I would say it's 99%, 98% an American phenomena. It also is what makes America the best equestrian market in the world is because, unlike the rest of the world, you do have Western horse sports as well which, as far as I can tell, make up about 60% of horse shows in America are Western. They're not English and I think the English world forgets that a lot. So how is the international market? Have you noticed any trends in the international market increasingly looking to bring Western horse sports to their country, increasingly looking to bring western horse sports to their country? Have you? And if they are, which are the? What markets are those and what have you kind of identified?
Sam Baynes:as like the motivation for it.
Scott Neuman:So internationally, you know, we have a good aqha, has a good presence internationally. We have 36 international uh affiliates and countries that have a Quarter Horse Association. In them there's 250 or plus horse shows, horse events produced internationally. But to that end what we're seeing, because, as you pointed out so well you know, western horses are associated with the West, right, the Western, that great romantic sort of ideal, and so as we promote our ranch classes, those are wildly popular internationally almost without exception, because they, whether it's Europe or Central or South America or anywhere, they're in love with that romantic idea of the Western horse on a ranch out there. And so our ranch classes, which emulate that but in a competition form, are wildly popular. That's probably when we say that they want to have shows. That's one of their first focuses is having the ranch classes than domestically in Europe. Of course the financial crunch has really hit them hard. You know their shows. They have so much more cost to go into a show Fuel alone is such a setback for them to go to shows. But still our European shows are sort of they're adapting and mutating the same way that we are here Now we're seeing quarter horse and paint shows together so they can get enough horses to pay for the facility to, you know, have it for a week or so. So that's great.
Scott Neuman:Lots of new emerging markets. Probably our single most dynamic market right now is Mexico. Mexico has, because Mexico has such a rich history right with Western horses to start with, and as rich a history as the United States has for that matter they have some of their own events. They're seeing such a great interest in our ranch events, the roping events, the cattle events, the cutting the working cowers, all that they have their own versions of it. But the market in Mexico is very, very good.
Scott Neuman:Central America same thing. Costa Rica we went to Honduras, there have some. I actually later today I'm going to Panama for a big horse show there. South America same thing when it comes to ranch horses, rope horses, cutting horses, brazil is thriving and then some Fascinating, and then the same thing in Argentina. So, and then you know, australia has a market that's interesting. It's really again doing well, sort of emulates. Their shows a little bit emulate just exactly what we do here. They have again a nice Western tradition there, right, their cutting horses there are phenomenal. They have a lot of good reiners and stuff. And then probably our most recent markets that we're doing better, we're trying to get into, is some Asian markets Japan and China. But they're very, very interested in our ranch events because the whole that romantic ideal is alive and well and thriving there.
Sam Baynes:And do you put that momentum down to the Yellowstone effect, or is it beyond that?
Scott Neuman:well, I think, I think it's existed for a long time before the yellowstone effect. But the yellowstone effect is undeniably real, right, gasoline it's sort of. It's sort of what the yellowstone did, even for me, right, you know I watched john wayne movies and I loved those movies and everything. But it put that same perspective in 2025, right, you can still be a cowboy on a working ranch and made it a dynamic, made the whole West and the rural living and everything dynamic.
Sam Baynes:In this day and age, it's not a relic at all, and so I think that romantic ideal that has been there all along just got the shot in the arm that it needed, right at the right time so, as someone who, um, someone who has traveled around to these international markets and seen it, if you were giving some business advice to any budding young american entrepreneurs in the western horse space, have you identified any major like business opportunities if they were looking to do something overseas? I mean, whether it's from like. So, for example, I'll give you an example.
Sam Baynes:When we, when we talk to, uh, zoe quinn, who's um kind of positioned herself as being the business point of entry to the equestrian market in china, one of the things that we talked to her about is that a real opportunity for Western trainers is that there's a lot of horse clubs across China but the trainers at the clubs need training. So there's a train the trainer opportunity there that you could go over. You could train the trainers and teach them. That's a really good business opportunity. And if you take that one step further, that could be like you create an online training course that they could subscribe to, for example. So that's kind of like an example, I mean. But it could be anything. It could be selling Western saddles, it could be exporting whatever. Have you identified any opportunities that you think that Western entrepreneurs could really harness to take advantage of this momentum of overseas interest in the sports.
Scott Neuman:Yeah, I mean, I really think that not picking one out in general no-transcript, we contact them, we send them out and we, we subsidize and we pay for that same thing with judges for certain shows, so the uh, I think probably long if you want to play the lawn game, and with horse sales, and I would think coaching and teaching to those markets, becoming a clinician and doing those places and then of course, following up potentially with sales and promotion, I think is just a very, very fruitful endeavor, could be Cool.
Scott Neuman:Of course, like everything, know, the, the, the people involved. You have to have that. That explore, bug and adaptation to new cultures and stuff. Right, they want to ride western horses and they want to become cowboys, but they also want to retain their culture as well, right, yeah, yeah, so you need to be a western diplomat you got it exactly, yeah, all right scott.
Sam Baynes:Well, thank you so much for your time today maybe now so more than ever yeah, absolutely, yeah, exactly yeah, with the current state of things, but, um, thank you so much for your time today. That was, that was awesome and, um, I really enjoyed really digging into, like the systemic and existential challenges of the industry and talking about what solutions could be, and I hope that people who listen to this would be like it's so important that we get people to start thinking about it on this level, because the only way you can start to effect a change and develop solutions is to first understand the context of the problem it is, and you know, I guess I would just pass along to young people or aspiring people not young necessarily, aspiring people that it's just it's so.
Scott Neuman:It's such a whole portion whatever portion you get involved of the industry and it's like everything you just get in and you hard work and you show your enthusiasm and you're promoted and promoted, encouraged, everything right up the ladder so quickly. Right, because of what? Going back to the beginning of our talk, the lack of people who are willing to put in the time and the work to produce horror shows or travel internationally, whatever. It is Right If you're willing to do it. There is an industry right there. We're ready. It is right If you're willing to do it.
Sam Baynes:There's an industry right there, ready, Fantastic, fantastic, and so for people who, is there anything that you want to mention right now? Any programs?
Scott Neuman:you want to spout or any links to anything you want people to check out while listening. You know from our end, if anytime they want to come to the AQHA webpage, I would suggest from what I do my department. They can go to under resources and they can look at shows and we at shows at aqhaorg or international at aqhaorg either one and we we really really really work hard at trying to get back to people and a lot of things in our show department are rather quick turnaround. Right. There's somebody calling from a show that has a problem. They need it solved now and so so we're used to reacting pretty quickly all right.
Sam Baynes:Well, awesome scott, awesome Scott. That was amazing. Thank you so much for your time today, and I'll speak to you soon, no doubt Well thanks for having me so much For having me.
Scott Neuman:It's been a great time and it's great. We always learn when we hear about other associations, other breeds, other disciplines. That's how we get better. So thanks for having me on Awesome Take.