Pegasus Podcast
@thepegasusapp https://www.thepegasus.app/🐴 Conversations with the movers and shakers of the global equestrian industry. Hosted by Pegasus founders Sam Baynes and Jen Tankel.
Pegasus Podcast
From Tradition to Innovation: The Evolution of Kerrits and Navigating the Modern Retail Landscape
This episode is brought to you by Kerrits Equestrian.
Pegasus Co-Founders Jen Tankel and Sam Baynes talk with the team behind Kerrits, arguably every rider's beloved apparel brand. 🥕
In this episode with Sara Florin, Vice President of Kerrits Marketing, and Mary Hallissey, Vice President of Kerrits Sales, we discuss:
- The founding story of Kerrits
- How Kerrits harnesses authenticity to stay visible in the online search arena
- The significance of inclusive marketing that resonates with riders across disciplines and body types
- How to stay relevant in an industry full of new brands
- And more 🥕
🐴 This episode is brought to you by Pegasus, the first modern event management system that makes it easy to host and run equestrian events. Sign up for early access at www.thepegasus.app.
Be sure to follow Pegasus on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, TikTok and subscribe to The Oxer, the #1 weekly newsletter for global equestrian industry happenings. 🗞️
Okay, so, sarah and Mary, thank you very much for joining us this morning. If you just want to take it in turns, starting with you Sarah, if you just want to give the audience a quick like one minute background on who you are and what you do, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having us. We're very excited to be here. So I'm Sarah Florin. I'm the VP of Marketing at Carrots. I have been with Carrots for about six years and prior to that I was the VP of creative at SmartPak Equine, another little company you may have heard of, and I was there for about 10 years. So I have been in the equestrian gear tack supplement apparel industry for about 15 years.
Speaker 2:And then, as far as my riding experience, I have been riding for over 30 years, I would say I identify most closely as an eventer. I had an off-track thoroughbred that I competed with for about seven years before he had a career-ending injury. And then now I am doing mostly dressage but also jumping on fjord horses, which I never would have thought that I would be riding fjords, but just as luck would have it, that's the barn that I found and they're homebreds that were bred to be sporty so they can jump three foot and they can do third and fourth level dressage and it is so much fun because their attitudes are great and they're so easy and fun to ride and I'm like, why doesn't everyone just have these really quiet, nice, cute horses? So that's a little about me.
Speaker 1:Right, and Mary, do you want to introduce yourself?
Speaker 3:Yes, I'm Mary. I am the VP of sales at Carrots. This is my 16th year with the company. I feel very honored to have worked there for that long and kind of seen the evolution in the industry. It really has gotten me out across the country, traveling all over the place, which has been an excellent opportunity, visiting all of our retailers and attending events. We have a great team. Yes, thank you so much for having us on this podcast and then for writing.
Speaker 3:I too identify most closely with eventing but really growing up in Pony Club had the opportunity to live in London for seven years when I was younger and so got the British Pony Club experience which was, like it's just so ingrained in the culture over there that I think that's such a really great foundation, brought it, moved back to the States, rode through college and now my goal is once a week and you know that's my realistic goal, but at least I can still keep it going in my life and I think that that's such a great thing about horses is it can be a lifelong passion at whatever capacity. You're able to do it in Amazing.
Speaker 4:Yeah, Well, I'm excited to have you guys here. I mean, Carrots is the beloved brand. It was like the very first brand that I was introduced to. I too, pony clubber eventer, now identifying as a show jumper, because the things I used to jump I'm terrified of.
Speaker 4:I have a sense of my mortality in my thirties now that I didn't have when I was 14. I peaked at 14. But what's cool is that now, in this new stage, if you will, of life, of trying to make riding one time a week a really good goal? Carrots 2 is that brand that I'm still riding in and working in, so I'm selfishly excited to have you guys here.
Speaker 1:Fantastic and for our listeners. So this podcast is essentially we're going to be focusing on the equestrian apparel market and looking at the history of how the apparel market has operated and then how that is all changing as a result of everyone a lot of apparel marketing and sales going to online, the world of Shopify stores these days, international shipping. So we're going to have two experts in the industry who have worked all over the industry, who have gone through the process of transitioning from the old way of doing things to the new way of doing things, commenting on how that market has changed and how they think about it. So in order to understand and appreciate how the market has changed, let's first have a look at how it used to run. I'm not sure which one of you wants to take it away, but do you want to give us a bit of a history of Carrots, the brand and how historically this kind of done business?
Speaker 3:Absolutely, and I think that it really is a true grassroots story. So our founder is Carrie Kent and she came from the windsurfing world, originally designing and creating swimsuits out of the back of her car in Hood River, oregon in 1989. I think I'm going to get the date wrong, but her original passion was really to create apparel for riding horses and so in 1991, she got an opportunity to do so through a distributor. So this was kind of the origination of Carrot. So we were distributed through Isers, which was the old Isers Millers. People might recognize the names, but we are talking about 31 years ago, so many of our listeners probably weren't alive the distribution channels. Carrots was put out there. A fun little tidbit about Carrie is they really wanted her to design the clothes and have their label and she was like nope, if I'm going to design these clothes, they are going to have my name on them. So they had a little challenge sold enough tights and was able to get Carrots label on the outside of her pants. So they were co -branded at first. So in 1991, started that wholesale distribution.
Speaker 3:Later, around 2000, 2001, I believe, carrie took it on herself to wholesale the clothing. So no longer had the distributor had a team of sales reps that traveled around the US really working with our retailers of all different sizes, and so that's the great thing about the industry. You have some really small local stores and then some larger entities with multiple doors, but just really making sure that we were getting in front of people at the retail level and I should actually back up that when the company did start going back to the grassroots is, it really was Carrie and Michelle McAlpine, who is still with us she's our VP of production, taking the horse trailer, going to local shows in the Northwest, getting the product out there, just really pounding the pavement to get people aware. Also, really, a piece that people might not know about Carrots is she was the originator of the performance tight.
Speaker 3:Before Carrots, tights were not a thing Like now they are very commonplace, as we will talk about later, I'm sure. But she really was taking her background in the ski world and the windsurfing world and like how can we use these performance athletic fabrics? How can we make sure they fit a rider's body? How can we make sure there's no inner leg seams, like all these little intricate details that went into developing the optimal riding tight for comfort, performance, durability.
Speaker 1:What was the status quo before that change?
Speaker 3:Before that was like a very traditional breech, if you think of like a more probably like rugged material, like not the four-way stretch traditional zip, snap, suede, knee patch or full seat.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was stiff uncomfortable, not breathable, not flexible. It'd just be like riding in like regular pants. It's so bad, like painful, to have your knee bent in a fabric that doesn't stretch for like more than five minutes. You'd feel like you'd get bruises on your knees, I swear.
Speaker 4:That's one way to keep your legs still while riding.
Speaker 3:But so I think that really just segue on that.
Speaker 3:It really was our retailers that got the carrots name out there by showcasing our apparel and we do two seasonal collections, so spring, summer, fall, winter as our two main lines, and then we have all of our core product.
Speaker 3:Of course it's developed a lot over the past 30 years, but really it was our retailers giving us the exposure to all of the equestrian industry, because really what you have to think about is there wasn't an internet, so it was being in all of these old catalogs and I remember growing up, having catalogs on my coffee table and looking at them was like my favorite thing to do like Christmas, like circling all the equestrian items that I wanted to get, and so it really was that exposure from these catalog mail-outs and then people making that annual pilgrimage to the tax store. I remember in high school you'd get your whole barn to go and you'd be like we're going to the store. I remember in high school you'd get your whole barn to go and you'd be like we're going to the store, We've all got our list, what are we going to get? And it was just like that was the previous way of doing stuff and getting products.
Speaker 1:I was going to ask. So we spent a lot of time on our podcast talking about, and, with our engineering team and product team, designing features to try and make it easier for brands to market their products and services, and so that's where we're going with our platform. But the thing that I find fascinating is, even today, with everything that we have available we have Instagram accounts, we have Facebook accounts, we have Instagram and Facebook ad networks all this sort of stuff Equestrians still complain that it's almost impossible to market and advertise and sell to the equestrian industry, and you guys had none of that, but in one sense, with less options available, it streamlined the channels available. So I mean, yeah, now there are too many options.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So, like, what were the challenges of the old model? Or was the old model of distributing through tax stores and catalogs and stuff? Was it actually in many ways easier?
Speaker 3:I think it was a lot simpler, absolutely Like when we look at the body of work that we have to do now. We used to have very simple photo shoots. We would only get a select number of images that would be in our catalog. People didn't have to have six different views of a pant and see every feature. So there was a lot more simplicity. It really was when I started out a pencil and paper and you physically counted inventory. We still do that some places, but there weren't these systems that people utilize and all these open to buys and min maxes and things that retailers are able to use now. But I do think there was that one selling channel. So we try to level the playing field as much as possible now, but there really was that own outlet. So, yes, it was probably easier, but we have to evolve with the times.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so you guys use catalogs and stuff. But as far as and I'm sure it's similar today with the tax stores, but back then, especially the tax stores in many ways, the power balance between the power balance and the distribution, I suppose in many respects had the onus was on the tax stores because they knew they had the direct customer facing interaction. So do you guys have to go around and negotiate separate contracts with every single tax store distribution or was it like one large commercial contract?
Speaker 3:To be honest, it's pretty simple. Like we have our wholesale pricing for our retailers and then we have our map policy, which is our minimum advertised pricing our retailers, and then we have our map policy, which is our minimum advertised pricing. So for anything that's in season, it really follows that pricing structure, just so that it's not a race to the bottom and people can start discounting. So we really want to maintain the integrity of our product and really like, as far as a black or a tan tight, like it's a piece that people need to go buy and so it shouldn't be this sale item, like, of course, seasonal or some seasonal colors can do that. But right now and I'm jumping forward but the whole world is on sale and so we've really been struggling with how do you maintain the integrity of the brand, because carrots, they are lifetime pieces once you get them. So really just working on that. But as far as our structure with our retailers, like we make it equal for all of them, so it doesn't deal with like intricate contracts or anything.
Speaker 4:How do you actually ensure that they aren't doing this race to the bottom when your products are distributed in so many different places across the world? Like, how do you actually make sure, or do you kind of just hope for the best To?
Speaker 3:be honest, it's fairly self-regulating. So people they know that they need to maintain our pricing if they want to continue to carry our products, and I don't want to call it tattling, but people will let us know if someone has something that's not on price and then we reach out. Often it's just a mistake too, like with all the different details that go in with operating online sales, but we really like our map policy for the integrity that it creates and we have excellent retail partners that value that and honor it.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I would also say that there's an appreciation by the retailers of having that in place and they appreciate when manufacturers have it, particularly if the manufacturer, like we do, also sells direct to consumer. There's extreme frustration from retailers who see a brand that sells both wholesale and direct to consumer when their prices and offers on their own website are undercutting the retailer. To, like Mary said, preserve the integrity of the brand and the pricing and not have our wholesale partners, who built our brand for the past 30 years, suddenly feel like we're trying to undercut them and sell at better offers than them. So, like Mary said, there's a little bit of a self-policing and a true appreciation for the manufacturers who respect their pricing policies on the seasonal items.
Speaker 1:Interesting.
Speaker 1:Mary, you said something interesting I'd never even thought about before, and maybe it's like us showing our age as being only really becoming, I would say, business savvy and business aware over the last 15 years. But you said like the whole world's on sale now and that creates its own problem. And then you said earlier that you used to all get together and you'd go to the tax store as a barn and you'd go shop the sales. So something I'd never even considered before is I suppose the world used to have seasonal sales and so that allowed you not only to manage your inventory better but also managing your pricing, manage your messaging and everything. But now, in this world that we live in, where everyone can be on sale 24 seven and it seems like everyone is on sale 24 seven just to try and basically get people to purchase and convert those sales Does that drastically complicate your guy's life? Does it? And if it does, how does it? Because I haven't got the mindset to figure out how I would think about that as a marketing team or a distribution team.
Speaker 3:So this is very interesting and actually one of our repercussions of COVID is, truthfully, where this stems from, at least in our industry of COVID is truthfully like. Where this stems from at least in our industry and, I think, in other places is basically, when COVID hit, the world shut down. No one knew what was going to happen. People slashed their orders because they didn't want to have excess, and then all of a sudden there became this increased consumer culture, especially in the outdoor space, and so then it was this race to build more products, because everyone was sold out of everything. So all of a sudden, everyone had much larger builds on their manufacturing. But what happens is we have to manufacture so far in advance, like our design team. Right now, 2025 is already designed and done, so it just takes a really long time for this all to cycle through.
Speaker 3:So basically, all the inventory has come in in the past few years, and this was set in motion a while ago, and so it's riding the course, so to speak, to hopefully come out on the other side but kind of get back to how we were six years ago, where we are able to create a product. People know that it is being launched and if you want to get it, you need to buy it now, because it is created in limited quantities and we are not going to have them on sale at the end of the season. So it's retraining our customers, both on the wholesale and the retail level, that if you want something you need to buy it now and then kind of get out of that sale mentality. So that's for us and Sarah can speak more to that as well because you've got a ton of knowledge from other spaces. But that's what we're kind of working on.
Speaker 2:I think, like on our end as a manufacturer, it's a matter of getting the inventory right. So, like you said, it's not access to sell at the end of the day, and that we're building a customer base that's loyal to the product and knows that it's priced well for what it is, because it really is a very approachable price point for the quality that we provide across all of our products. And maybe there's a special here and there, maybe there are some seasonal colors that go on a little bit of discount, but that we're not, as an industry, so over-inventoried that the only option that we have is to try and, just like fire, sale everything. And then, on the consumer side, it is such a challenge in this direct space and in a space where you're competing on Google and Amazon, where it's so easy to price shop and the algorithms obviously pay attention to what people want, and what people want is to find a discount code or something that's on sale. So you have to do a lot of games in Google ads and on Amazon to get full price listings in front of eyeballs and to make sure that you're attracting the customers that are willing to pay for the quality of the product, that it changes every day.
Speaker 2:It's not. I can't even say like this is the strategy that will work tomorrow, because it's likely that it's going to change, or one lever that you pull is going to change everything. Or having as many retailers as we do that have become digitally savvy over the past five years because of COVID, who maybe didn't sell online before, but now do that means there's just more options than ever for where you can go to buy something, and, of course, you're going to price shop. That's natural. So it's just a balancing act between getting good customers in and getting loyal customers in and not having to, like we've said, race to the bottom, and that's why the branding is so important too, right, because then you're just, you're loyal to the brand, you know it's consistent.
Speaker 4:I mean, even I saw I got these ads for Shein selling horse riding tights and it was like $5. And like there's no way that is a quality pair. But I just from I guess you know Pegasus socials and seeing lots of horse content, I guess Shein is now trying to tap into the horse riding space and it is now easier than ever to whip up a Shopify store and be direct to consumer and race to the bottom. So yeah, just having that brand and just knowing, like, why would I bother with that? Because that is probably going to fall apart as soon as I put it on, whereas this brand, carrots I know it's going to hold the test of time and it looks good, it fits me right. And then people don't necessarily care about the price, they don't necessarily care to try and shop around or find that carrots discount code.
Speaker 1:I suppose on that too, the kind of the defense that you guys kind of have in the market fortunately is that you are building a tire for what is hard, dirty work, so fast fashion. You know, anyone who's a real equestrian, who's going to seriously buy a product, would be like I'm not going to buy it from Shein because it'll fall apart after my first ride. It'll be ruined.
Speaker 4:Or worse, you're riding, and it could be a very embarrassing moment.
Speaker 2:It needs to be sturdy. That is an excellent ad campaign, yeah.
Speaker 1:Don't get caught. Don't get caught with your pants down. Something you said, sarah, that was really fascinating was you said that when you're playing the games with the Google AdWords and stuff that, because you guys have consistent pricing, that it makes it hard for you guys to rank because, like Google AdWords and stuff will prioritize discounted products and all that sort of stuff. Is that something that brands that stick to consistent pricing they don't have sales the way other shops will, or brands that have, as you said, like this complex relationship, which is that, while technically you guys could slash your prices on your website if you wanted to, the fact that you've got to respect the distributors, the tax stores, and you've got to keep your online prices consistent with their retail prices. That basically puts you in a position in which you're kind of in a rock and a hard place when trying to play the algorithms for, like Google Shopping and stuff, is it Because Google Shopping will prioritize products that have major discounts and stuff, because they know that leads to a greater conversion?
Speaker 2:It ends up having to be a combination of things that you need to do to put yourself in like a more defensible position. I guess is the best way that I could explain it, because, you know, paying for Google Ads or Google Google shopping to get listings is one thing. Paying for people that are searching for the carrots brand to make sure that you show up is another option. Trying to go after non-branded searches is another option. But then also just trying to make sure that the product that we offer and the way that we market it and the way that we explain it on the website matches the intent of someone's search, because I feel like Google, every day, is trying to get better at instantly serving you what it thinks that you are looking for.
Speaker 2:So just being sure that the way that we talk about the products and name the products is going to be like okay, the person is searching for white full seat breeches with black seat for dressage and making sure that we have something on our site, whether it's full price or whether there's a discount code or it wouldn't be on sale because it's white, but whatever offer that someone might be able to find a free shipping code is something that we have frequently that shows up, but making sure that the intent is there to match those up, and I think that Google is getting, with as much AI content that's out there and just generic, everyone's trying to put all these keywords into everything generic.
Speaker 2:Everyone's trying to put all these keywords into everything. Having stuff that's really authentic and a brand that people can trust and language on the website that makes people know that this is real people doing this and not a robot. I think Google is getting smarter about serving those products to people when they're actually looking for them. That is. I can only trust in you, google, that you're doing us right.
Speaker 1:Fascinating. And the other thing that you said that was really interesting. Was that so historically right? If you look at the past, you've had this relationship which was these tax stores and retailers. They helped you grow your brand for the last 30 years and they've been loyal customers and you get a lot of respect and a great symbiotic relationship. Then you guys went through this transition period, which was that you started selling direct yourselves and you had to be very careful in managing those relationships and the communication with those retailers. But now in the last five years the retailers have gone through the same process themselves, but they're now selling online and stuff. So has the relationship gone through a third iteration now that, like they themselves, are also doing online sales?
Speaker 3:Yes, absolutely, and really our most successful partners are the ones that are omni-channel and selling in diverse spaces stores that have mobile units, that get out there where riders are, because I think it's all about accessibility, and where we find people being successful. I think that what we really focus on while we do sell direct is it's our job to build the demand for the brand wherever someone is going to purchase that. So we are hoping in all of our marketing efforts that, yes, we're going to have direct sales on our site, but we also have a strong retail locator. We always are promoting in our emails like go shop local because our local tax stores. I mean they are such a wealth of knowledge and resources and like people need to try things on. There's so many different options these days that you don't know which is gonna be the right one for you. So we just really wanna keep building the brand, keeping it top of mind across all sales channels.
Speaker 4:And is there a particular kind of demographic or market that you are? I mean, I know that the clothes itself are designed for all bodies, all ages, and growing up we all knew carrots. That was the number one beloved brand. Like you were talking about how everyone would go together to the tax store. I remember vividly in pony club we would all go together as a club and because we'd want to match at rallies and things like that and then go buy carrots. So for you guys, are you looking to maintain that? Or also, like, really expand into different areas, different disciplines, different segments? Like, how are you guys thinking about your marketing channels and who you're targeting?
Speaker 3:I think it's a little bit of everything that you just said there, because there are the core classic carrots customers that know the brand, but then it is how can we get increased exposure to people that might not be as familiar or not think that carrots is best for them?
Speaker 3:And we talk internally a lot about good, better, best, and you have that within our products and then our retailers have that within the brands that they carry. So it's not that each product like we're not trying to say that everything we have is for everyone, but we are trying to say within our range of products we do have something for everyone, depending on how you position it. I think that from the wholesale side and you were saying growth into other industries we have industry trade shows that we go to that often have buyers from a lot of different stores and that's where we do get exposure more into the Western space or outdoor space. But again it's with particular products. Like traditionally Western riders really are going to wear their jeans, so they might not be in our tights and breeches but absolutely they can wear our quarter zips, our vests, our jackets.
Speaker 2:So it's trying to figure out the right assortment for each grouping and Sarah probably has more on that one too, and then it becomes a matter of marketing making sure that the marketing assets speak to that audience. I think that's something that people are more and more sensitive to these days, with the infinite amount of content that's out there, and the expectation is that you will see someone who looks like you and we do want people to be able to picture themselves in the clothes so that just takes that extra, above and beyond effort to make sure that the marketing really speaks to the customers that we're trying to attract and the future that we want to see for the sport, too, as welcoming and not. You know, it's segregated by disciplines and having it be a place that people feel welcome.
Speaker 1:Actually your point about segregating for the disciplines. So we had a conversation with quite a prominent person in the equestrian space, probably about three, four years ago now, and he made the comment to us. He's like about once every four years, a new group of marketing professional marketers discover the equestrian industry and they think to themselves oh my God, this is the best market in the world. It's basically all women. It's like they're all buying the same products. They all have the same love for horses. It's pure. This is going to be the easiest thing in the world. And he said and four years later the same group walk out with their tail between their legs, defeated because it's so hard, because it's so siloed. So for you guys, as a successful brand who's been doing it successfully for 30 years, how does the silos of the different disciplines and that's before you even look at the silos of English versus Western how does that affect the way you think about marketing, distribution, allocation of resources and budget, et cetera?
Speaker 2:That feels like it's a very big question. So, based on the disciplines, I will say that one thing that's the interesting dichotomy that I've experienced, having lived on the East Coast for many years and then moving to the West Coast and working for carrots approximately the same time that I moved to the West Coast is even that approach to disciplines and what people wear, you can tell there's a difference, that there's so many barns up and down the East Coast that, like you, wouldn't be caught dead without a hairnet and you come out to the West Coast and it's like everyone's just got ponytails flowing free out of their helmet. So, being based on the West Coast, like Karis is based in the Pacific Northwest, I think there's by nature of the location and then, not having started as a discipline-specific brand, the products and range, just by nature, speak to a wider range of disciplines, whether it's like a casual rider or someone who shows occasionally. We have eventers in the mix, endurance riders in the mix, dressage riders, jumpers Hunter Jumper is probably one of the ones that we have the least of but, as Mary said, like over the past five years in particular, we have added product that is perfect for someone that is showing, even at a rated Hunter Jumper show.
Speaker 2:So there's something for everyone. And then it's just a matter of like getting the good assets having team riders that represent us in those disciplines and be able to be sure that we're speaking the language to all of those people Kind of having almost entirely horse owners and horse people on our marketing team makes it really easy to get the specific language and jargon per discipline right and then just also know what things speak to a wide range of riders across disciplines. So on our social channel there's a lot of things that's like. I think a lot of riders can relate to this experience as a horse person, regardless of what discipline they ride.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think to segue from that as far as what Sarah was saying is really our specialty is performance apparel for the everyday rider, and it doesn't matter what discipline you are, but it's. How can we enhance the time that you spend with your horses? And we know that only a very small fraction of a small percentage of people's time is spent showing. But how many hours do you spend at the barn and what is your everyday go-to for whatever discipline you're riding in, but really it's for people's time with horses.
Speaker 1:Yeah, cause it is kind of the irony of the industry, isn't it? Is that functionally, their participation in the sports are in silos, but the products and services that service them cut across all of them relatively equally, like 90% of the products cut across all the verticals equally, and then 10% of the products will be unique to the different disciplines. But because they operate and function in these silos, it's really difficult for a brand to figure out. How do I get my messaging right, how do I get my marketing right? How do I get my budget correctly? Because I'm trying to serve all of them but they exist in their own silos and therefore if I don't get the messaging right for that silo, then it may not resonate, et cetera. So it's quite a bit of a Rubik's cube from a branding and a marketing perspective for brands in the equestrian space. And that doesn't even include like, oh, now we're going to go into a Western, which is a whole new kettle of fish.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's one that we have barely dipped a toe in, like Mary said, in terms of offering like we have a bootcut denim I wrote it down the western riding bootcut braches we don't really have men, so we have really our niche as a brand, is really for women and girls.
Speaker 2:english riding again, like mary said, someone that's looking for everyday performance, maybe lightly competitive, but just like, really just enjoys the sport, enjoys the time with their horse and wants comfort and functionality, are two of the things that our customers look for absolutely the most and can find with us at a reasonable price.
Speaker 2:In terms of thinking back to segmenting some of the marketing, you can either go a little bit more generic and then let it serve to everyone, or use what limited tools are left, like on meta, to segment towards audiences based on affiliations, ushj or USEF or there's still some brands that you could say people who are interested in these or have these hobbies that you can target towards. And then, yeah, it does take the time to craft the messaging, the images, so that it speaks to that person. I think we kind of do a little of both in terms of something that will speak to a wide range of equestrians to whom carrots is appealing, and then also try and target specifically when we have products that maybe someone doesn't know that carrots has or wouldn't have thought of carrots for, like, making sure that okay, hunter jumpers, we do have a mesh show coat and like nice breeches that don't cost an arm and a leg but are still totally show ring ready and super comfortable. Psa everyone out there.
Speaker 4:I know you can answer that if you wanted to.
Speaker 3:I was just going to say, I think a whole nother layer to this as well, which is a great benefit of carrots. But we are also dealing with a multi-generational customer, so we create products for a kid's extra small, which is a four-year-old all the way up to someone riding in their retirement typically or whatnot.
Speaker 3:But it is then also a whole bunch of different age demographics and trying to work on the marketing and speak to the different audiences that way that our marketing team does a fantastic job of doing, but it just adds as well to how you position the brand and where you position it and how you speak to the customers, which again it's great because I think the nice thing about carrots and as you've been saying, jen is it can be your first pair of riding tights and it can also be your last, so you don't have to switch brands as you age or do things like that because of the diversity of the styles as well.
Speaker 4:How do you think about product innovation? Is it something where you guys already have a lot of?
Speaker 2:It's definitely something that we saw in our customer survey is that customers also again already have a lot of it's definitely something that we saw in our customer survey is that customers also again I think I said kind of alluded to this before, maybe said it before, but customers do appreciate seeing themselves and seeing a range of different riders from different backgrounds, different body types represented, different ages represented in the marketing, and that's something that we do make a concerted effort to do and I'm glad that it's appreciated because, again, it's what we want to see for the future of the sport is that it's welcoming for everyone.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally. I mean, even just from, like a personal perspective, marketing is entrepreneurial, is being an entrepreneur every single day. Well, how are we going to do this? How are we going to do that? You've got to solve complex problems, so to like, have a theory, execute that theory and then have the survey, the feedback loop, come back and say we saw what you did and we liked it. That's very rewarding, it's very fulfilling on just a personal level.
Speaker 2:Yes, it absolutely is, and I'm glad that it's seen. I'm glad that it's appreciated, because we know it's the right thing to do. And it does. Yes, thank you for also recognizing that.
Speaker 4:How nice it is to hear that the survey that you guys sent out because I know you had mentioned it before. So what was the survey Like, what were the intentions behind it and what were some of the findings that you discovered?
Speaker 2:So we're at an interesting point here. As you guys know, we've talked about the shift over the past say like five to 10 years, from being completely a wholesale brand to being wholesale and direct-to-consumer, to being competing against literally like a set of a hundred new equestrian apparel brands that have been developed within the past 10 years, a lot of them during covid it was like a covid side project, I think for everyone to start an equestrian apparel brand.
Speaker 1:We personally know one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we have a friend of ours who started like a shopify store for equestrian tights right easier than ever to find a manufacturer that just has a stock pant that you can just put your label on and start a Shopify store and start selling, kind of wherever you want to. In that transition time, and knowing for how long Carrots has been a brand, we have a lot of questions about where we want to take this in the future. Where's our biggest room to grow? What are big opportunities in the market? And we thought what better place to start than to ask our customers, many of whom are very loyal and have been with the brand for a long time, some of whom are newer just come on with us in the past few years, but just asking what do you love about the brand? What are things that you would like to see different from the brand?
Speaker 2:And then, just in the industry, what are some of the biggest challenges overall with equestrian apparel and in the equestrian industry as a whole? So we've gotten a really great response so far and there's a few topics on which there is definitely agreement. The biggest thing that I would say as a whole that I'm taking from this will not be a surprise is how expensive the sport is rising costs, inflation, the cost of literally everything, not just apparel, because honestly, if you look at carrots prices, we've held pretty steady for the past several years. Things go up $5 here and there, but we have not skyrocketed our prices but just people are paying for hay and for board and show fees and everything. It just is really adding up in addition to inflation everywhere else in your life. And it's kind of a trend that we've seen over the past couple of years and heard anecdotally that people are starting to spend on their horse first and maybe on themselves second.
Speaker 4:Gotcha. That's interesting, and when did you do something that? Was this a last year's survey, or did this like were these results out this year?
Speaker 2:Fresh. This is actually currently ongoing as of March, so the responses are probably rolling in currently.
Speaker 1:It's funny like the place we started was by asking our customers, which like obvious idea, but it's amazing how many companies don't do that. It's like such an obvious thing that a lot of companies overthink it and miss it and they just like come up with a new theory and try it out and see if it works. But just asking the customers and getting that raw feedback is a much better approach to it all.
Speaker 2:Yeah, maybe people are afraid to hear things like. They're like scared of the customers, like saying, oh, I don't like this or I don't like that. But those are kind of the things that you need to hear to improve and grow as a brand.
Speaker 3:Totally, totally we absolutely use that theory when working with our retailers. I show them the whole assortment of the carrot collection and we wouldn't be doing our jobs if everyone liked everything we were creating, right Like there's so many different ways to put together our collections, to give different looks, and it's not realistic to think that everyone likes every print that we do or everyone likes every color palette, but how can we continue to diversify it to make sure that people can then pick their assortments? And that's what's so nice with our retailers too, is you can make stores look totally different with their carrots collection, just on how you put it all together. Because I think also one of our founding philosophies and we see it a lot more now is we were also the original matchy matchy like really coordinating tops and bottoms.
Speaker 3:Now lots of people do this, and so we have to get back to telling our brand color stories. But all of our catalogs have always had our color story collections and that is what helps make both our stores and our end consumers like, makes it easy for them to put together an outfit, like they want to know what looks good together and not have to think about it. And so if we do that, work on the design side and say here are these tops that go directly with these tights, like job done and so like we need to continue doing that. But how can we make it as easy as possible for all of our consumers is something we definitely work on.
Speaker 4:So how do you think about the product innovation? Is that something like to your point, you had the matchy matchy, people started copying it and now you have to tell them again like, hey, no, we still have that. So is it something where you already do so much? So it's just a matter of continuing to tell that story, in addition to creating a whole new category. Again, like, how do you guys think about the products that you currently have versus what you can continue to innovate and create for the market?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can jump in on that. I think in Carrot's DNA to be innovative. So, yes, telling some of the stories of things that we already do and do well and have done for a long time, and making sure that people don't forget those or maybe they hear them if they haven't heard them before. But I do think that there's still room for true product innovation from Carrot's as a company, even something this year, like we've had this beloved ice field technology and ice fields heights that we actually still have. But we're launching a new technology for summer and hot weather riding, which is called cool core.
Speaker 2:That's out right now and that's the problems that equestrians have summertime heat, sweating, overheating, summers are only getting hotter. So, making sure that we have a product that is solving a problem for the customer and that's where I think the true innovation comes. Thinking about what are problems that you have in the winter that are unsolved, like where there's a true gap in the market, that's great. Everybody can do matchy matchy, that's fine. But, like, let's talk about what technology and fabrics is actually going to help improve your ride.
Speaker 4:Absolutely. I can't wait to wear my cool core this summer in Austin, Sarah.
Speaker 3:I just had a great point too, like in that performance element that is definitely rooted in our apparel and that actually has been a way that we have gotten exposure to other markets too.
Speaker 3:As far as we were one of the companies that had winter breeches like when I was riding there was no such thing as winter breeches and you just like put on tights under your tights or you know. But now we have had, we really use a lot of the polar tech fabrics, so in our power stretch and our wind pro, and I think that that opened up the brand to customers that might not wear carrots as their show apparel or in their spring summer season, but when there weren't any other options in winter they're like oh, this carrots sit tight. Wind pro is a great option for every day, because I'm looking for that pant. That is the solution to me being cold. So I think that that product innovation is something that we really focus on and if we keep that in mind, we are going to keep innovating, as Sarah said, and creating the best products out there for our customers.
Speaker 1:The other thing too, and this comes kind of brings it back full circle to what you were saying about all of these brands popping up during COVID If you are going to create a simple brand that, as you said, buys a wholesale off the printing press typical product and then just slap your label on it, you are, by definition, not innovating right. The only way that business model works is essentially to buy something at mass that everyone else is doing and put your label on it. So for a brand like you that has the infrastructure in place to innovate, to do research, to take that research, implement into a new product and then the resources to manufacture something novel and unique, that is your competitive advantage in the market. That can't be subjugated by someone with a Shopify store who's essentially an Instagram account and then just like a run of the mill manufacturing process.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think time will tell on a lot of the brands that have cropped up. People will realize how much effort it is to develop products if they want to do that, and how much effort it is to produce a good product, the one that people will not just be like oh yeah, you have a great Instagram page and I love your founder and your founder story but that over time, it's something that they actually go back to and want to rebuy. So I think that some brands will endure it. Some brands have a strong brand that they're creating on social and a good shopping experience and a good product, and some of them are looking for true ways to innovate in the market, and I think there's others that will eventually just die out over time. It's hard.
Speaker 4:It's hard work.
Speaker 1:Running a business. Doesn't matter what your business is, it's hard work. You've got to really love it to stick with it. So, on that point of all those brands popping up and stuff, so how has that affected your guys' business in the sense that it's not only you like Carrots, a well-established brand that has decades of history in the country that is kind of hurting, but it's also, I imagine, hurting your retail partners, such as the tax stores and stuff, who are like we're being hurt by this I imagine more than you guys in many respects, because people are just buying online and getting in the mail versus going to the local tax store and stuff. So have you guys had conversations with them about how you're going to work together to overcome this new challenge, or is it something that you kind of keep separate and they kind of do it on their own and you guys deal with it on your own?
Speaker 3:I think we do keep it a little bit separate but when working with our retail partners, like really reminding them to always have their core product in stock, because what drives people to continue going to the retail stores is being able to find everything that they need there.
Speaker 3:And when people pull away is if they go and the basic stock items that they need to get are not available, and then that instantly drives someone to go to websites, to websites.
Speaker 3:I think in the apparel space, as Sarah said, there are so many different brands that I think for a lot of our retailers they're so busy running their stores that they don't necessarily know about them, but it does encroach kind of on all spaces because there are so many options out there and quite a few of these brands, while they then have started direct to consumer, are coming into wholesale. So it is a little bit like how we can continue to keep our market share, like within the retail stores too, because what happens is both for the retailers and the end consumers. The new shiny brand is exciting but, as Sarah mentioned, it might just be for a season or two. So it is going back to kind of riding our course, knowing our foundation, knowing that these are market cycles that we go through. They just evolve differently. And just being true to ourself and sticking to our core as we kind of cycle through it.
Speaker 4:I almost feel like it's come full circle as well, like so. We're in Austin, so there are a lot of CBD brands especially. I don't know if it just curates like food here, but, for example, we know someone who started a Bobca brand and it used to be online and now the big thing is it being in a store and selling it in a store. So I almost think like a way, yeah, it's so easy to sell online, there's a lot of traffic and options online, but if you are one of those brands that are in the store, that's kind of like your leg up and your advantage and there is something to being able to physically just go there and try it on. It's down the street, you know where it is Like.
Speaker 4:We were doing this thing during South by. I needed a bunch of pink clothes and could go on Amazon, but I wanted to be able to just go in person and see the size before I had to deal with the shipping and the returning, which sure enough, they didn't have it in the store. So I did end up buying it online and sure enough it didn't fit. So now I have to go and return it and it would have just been nice to have it all in the store. So to your point, if you do have enough options at the store, people know to keep coming back there, then you win them. But I do think there was kind of this period, especially with the internet boom and with COVID. It was really easy to go online and maybe the stores were struggling a bit, without knowing the numbers or having talked to any tax store owners themselves, but I'd imagine that they're seeing maybe a resurgence of growth in traffic there because of all the things I just said.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, to Mary's point, counterintuitively, the tax stores in many respects are winning out of all this because there's an increase in demand for the limited shelf space and so they're in a stronger position. I suppose to kind of I suppose renegotiate the prices of shelf space and renegotiate the distribution contracts, because they've got more options available to them and they're the one distribution point so that they actually might come out on top. And then they've got to weigh up long-term relationships versus a brand that might be a flash in the pan. And do they want to tarnish a relationship with a longstanding brand like Carrots that will definitely be around in 10 years, when this flashy brand might not be around in 10 years? But then they've ruined the relationship with Carrots.
Speaker 2:It's like yeah, I can see it's an interesting dichotomy, so I have a major. Jen, I hope this is not exactly what you just described. A thing that is happening is that people are using the retail store as a changing room, as like a dressing room a try on and then they leave the store and go and find the cheapest price that they can buy the thing online once they know what size they are. And that is a huge, huge challenge for retailers and it's disappointing for everyone involved, especially if you're then just like going to find it on like literally the cheapest on Amazon or whatever. So I just want another PSA. Please, if you go to your local tax store, support them. They have expertise. They can help you fit tall boots, they can help you fit a helmet, they can help you fit a safety vest, and then please buy it from them. That's their time and resources to maintain that place for you to try everything on and see what the quality is like in person.
Speaker 4:I'm surprised to hear that because there's also the shipping fees potentially and maybe it'll arrive in a couple of weeks and for me I needed something right away. They just didn't have the size and basically because our brand color is a very vibrant pink, I was looking for things in a very vibrant pink color and there were limited options at the tax store, so that's why I had to go online. But yeah, I'm surprised to hear that. I would have thought that people would have wanted the immediate gratification and to avoid all the shipping fees and potential of having to return it back to wherever they bought it from online.
Speaker 1:I suppose too that that's kind of where your guy's minimum sale price comes into play, right? So you basically communicate to the tax stores like, yeah, people can come into your tax store and they can try it on, and they can go try and find a cheaper price anywhere, but they're not going to find it cheaper anywhere.
Speaker 1:Because we enforce everyone who sells our product to keep it at this certain price point and if they don't, then we ban them from being able to sell our product. So that gives you that like bargaining point to be like. You know, you should sell our product through your store because we're going to increase your conversions because of our consistency in pricing.
Speaker 4:And how do you guys think about vendoring at horse shows and being a presence at particular events? Is that something that Carrots actively does and has a strategy behind the kind of shows or locations that they go to? What is your strategy there?
Speaker 3:So, with that, it is predominantly, or actually always, with our retail partners. So we don't do anything direct retail but we will partner with our retailers to be set up at different venues, and what's really great about that is we get the diverse exposure of shows of all different levels and then being with mobile units that get that product out there, and it really is the whole scale of different shows. I think for us contrary to what people might think is we are, while well established, it is still a pretty small team, and to have someone at an event for the duration of a show series is just not feasible. But so if we can then really continue to partner with our retailers, make sure they have the right product there, then it gets us the exposure that we need.
Speaker 3:And then I want to go back to something that Sam was saying, like as far as for these retail stores and like our minimum advertised pricing really does help, but we always encourage special orders and drop ships and I know that that was something we were maybe going to touch base on. So if the store doesn't have what you need, they can get anything from us, and so customers should always ask and then that really kind of keeps building the relationships because we want to make it easy and make sure that we are giving the best customer experience across the board, so for both our retailers and our end consumers. But yes, we will always happily drop ship an item to the store or directly to the customer, like on behalf of the store, if it's something that they need that was not in stock.
Speaker 1:Right. Well, that's been amazing. So I've got one last question because we're going for an hour now. That's a bit of a random question. So the one thing that Jen and I talk about a lot is that.
Speaker 1:Coming back to this story I was telling about everyone. You know, the equestrian industry is a relatively pure market, especially on the English side. It's mainly women participating in the same activities, with a relatively consistent lifestyle and experience in the equestrian space. Why aren't there more brands and products trying to serve the industry as athletes as opposed to apparel? So my background, one sport that I've paid a lot of attention to in the past is CrossFit Now.
Speaker 1:Crossfit because it's full of people doing a lot of hard cardio, physical work outdoors. If you want to launch like liquid IV, there's no like the. Crossfit is always like the market entry. It's people who need electrolyte in their water bottle on the way to the gym, blah, blah, blah, blah. If you want to launch like stretching equipment, if you want to launch like a massage gun, like CrossFit just gets. It's like the aircraft carrier that all these brands take off from. But the equestrian industry has the exact same requirements. A lot of the equestrian, especially in the heat they drink, they had the liquid IVs, they use the massage guns, they've got the stretching equipment and it's basically a purely female market. So it's a great entry point. So I know it's like outside your guys scope because you are apparel, but as a brand, have you guys ever considered potentially figuring out we have this brand audience. Is there other products we can sell that are outside your typical apparel space or have you spoken to partners to partner with to do something along those lines?
Speaker 2:can I just clarify? You're asking not why isn't equestrian apparel like performance oriented, like cause? I think we can agree that it's has gotten more performance oriented. Yeah, you're asking if there's other products that are like athletic adjacent that could also be marketed to equestrians.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, and have you guys been approached by brands to do like a collaboration in that space? Or have you guys at a strategy session thought about, like what are some other things that we can sell? That's carrots, you know, carrots branded, that serves this other aspect of the equestrian life, like on the supplements and biology side, as opposed to simply being apparel?
Speaker 2:yeah, so we did actually ask in the survey. One of the questions we asked of our customers was what other products they would buy from us, and included on that list were rider therapy products. So, whether that's braces or magnetic therapy stuff like that, Rider position aids is something that's become a lot more common of being able to hold your hand steady or things to have your shoulders be in the right position. Those were actually surprisingly lower on the list of what people said they would buy from us, versus something like tall boots. I think it's certainly a sport and it's certainly an athletic endeavor. I still think that there's not like. Well, I guess when you're comparing it to CrossFit, I don't think that most writers would think that they're like CrossFit level of fitness, but maybe we need to change that.
Speaker 2:I do think that the number of Instagram accounts that have cropped up again, like in the past five years of rider fitness programs and focused on like do you have? Is this a problem that's happening with your lower leg? It's probably a problem in your hip. Like here's the solution for it. So there, I think there might be an opportunity there with training programs or again like those position aids, and then I think the next adjacency would actually be safety, which has become a growing area of awareness in terms of helmets and actually wearing helmets. And then what? Helmet technology air vests become a lot more common if there's just more people that are concerned about the safety of the sport. There's potential adjacencies there. I have a wildcard carrots product idea.
Speaker 4:So our rider, gabby Reuter, who's also a partner of Outen. So when we first started working together, we gifted her a bouquet of carrots like actual carrots for her horses to eat. So what about a carrots carrots delivery Horse shows instead of a bouquet? So I really like the brand Books B-O-U-Q-U-S. It's just like really easy to buy flowers and subscriptions if you want. So for the lazy husbands who always forget to bring their significant other flowers, they can basically just put it as a subscription, but a carrots subscription at horse shows. So when their horses and their friends and teammates all do well, they can just simply order a carrots carrots. Okay.
Speaker 3:Jen, I will have to go back and I'll have to find the picture to send to you, and maybe many of our listeners will remember this. But Rebecca Farm is one of the large events that we partner with in the Pacific Northwest and back in the day used to have a thousand pounds of carrots delivered each year and they would come in on a semi truck and they would just be there and it would be a treat for yourself, a treat for your horse. Come in shop with us, grab some carrots, and it was just a really fun. It's a great play that we are able to utilize with having that.
Speaker 2:I love this idea and our parent company that owns carrots is called 10th Avenue Holdings, 10th Avenue Commerce, and they actually have several gifting businesses. I bet they would also love this, like FTD and From you Flowers, and then there's a succulent business and their jewelry and a couple of other things that are like very gifting oriented. So I think they would like this pitch.
Speaker 4:Because basically what we did is I just had custom gift wrap, basically custom Pegasus gift wrap, so it was. I just had custom gift wrap, basically custom Pegasus gift wrap, so it was like a bright pink gift wrap. And then I got these huge. So we were at the Hampton Classic I don't know what they do to make their carrots so large there. These carrots were each like two pounds and so it made for an amazing bouquet of carrots. And Rebecca Farm that's on our list of events to actually see in person. It looks incredible. I'm so jealous in Montana.
Speaker 1:Yeah, montana is like my favorite state in the country.
Speaker 3:If and when you guys decide to make it out there, let us know because we will definitely connect and it is an event that everyone needs to make the pilgrimage to at some point in time, because it's just not about the event Like it's. The Flathead Valley is beautiful and the Broussard family does like excellent job, like one of the nicest events in the country.
Speaker 1:Well, guys, that's been amazing. Thank you so much for your time today. Really appreciate it. It's been it's actually been a really excellent podcast, like one of our best.
Speaker 4:And thank you for the carrots top. I love this. It's amazing. You can write it in and we're going to podcast in it, so it's perfect.