Pegasus Podcast
@thepegasusapp https://www.thepegasus.app/🐴 Conversations with the movers and shakers of the global equestrian industry. Hosted by Pegasus founders Sam Baynes and Jen Tankel.
Pegasus Podcast
Bull Riding and Rodeo Economics with Ted Stovin of Everything Cowboy
Ted Stovin, the founder of EverythingCowboy.com, pulls back the curtain on the bull riding and rodeo worlds.
Venture with us as we navigate the rich tapestry of cowboy culture and learn how individuals from farriers to former hockey players have carved out a niche in the modern rodeo scene, embracing an athleticism that's reshaping the identity of the Western world.
Strap in as we unravel the shifting economics of bull riding, where the infusion of media attention and savvy investments have catapulted the sport into the limelight.
Delve into the growing phenomenon of bull ownership, and discover how celebrities like Larry the Cable Guy are getting in on the action.
We also break down how the professional realm of this rugged sport balances the allure of prize money against the lucrative potential of sponsorships and merchandise, revealing the intricate financial ecosystem that fuels local rodeos and global spectacles alike.
In this episode, we discuss:
- Why there's so much prize money in the bull riding and rodeo worlds
- Celebrity involvement in the bull riding scene
- What the English world can learn from bull riding
- And more.
🐴 This episode is brought to you by Pegasus, the first modern event management system that makes it easy to host and run equestrian events. Sign up for early access at www.thepegasus.app.
Be sure to follow Pegasus on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, TikTok and subscribe to The Oxer, the #1 weekly newsletter for global equestrian industry happenings. 🗞️
the PRCA model is not conducive to the growth of the sport overall and it's especially difficult for the PRCA and pro rodeo to move forward because they don't put on any of their own events, unlike the PBR where they can go do whatever they want to, because they can go and build a team's series. They can build their normal Unleash the Beast tour where the world champion wins the million dollars.
Speaker 3:Hi everyone. My name is Noah Levyvy and I'm the producer of our Pegasus podcast, hosted by our founders Jen Tinkle and Sam Baines. Today we are hosting Ted Stoven, the founder of EverythingCowboycom, arguably the top news site for rodeo and bull riding in Canada. Listen to this episode if you want to compare and contrast the English and Western riding worlds, as well as the horse riding and bull riding spaces. All right, let's get into it.
Speaker 4:All right, ted. So thanks very much for joining us today For our audience. Can you just give like a quick, like two minute summary of who you are and what you do?
Speaker 1:So I've been telling people lately that well for a long time that I just do everything I can to not have a real job. So right now that consists of one company which is called Everything Cowboy that has three different business lines in it. So we have a sales agency. We do sales for Canada West Boots and Montana Silversmiths in Alberta, canada, and then we have the music audio production business line where we do audio music and production at events. So for those that are familiar with Western sports, I do play the music and I have some audio gear that goes to a lot of the PBR Canada events across the country.
Speaker 1:So we're just making some plans right now on the scheduling and whatnot for the season. But we'll be in Edmonton, alberta, at Rogers Place for our PBR Canada finals in November. We'll be in Ontario for four shows in eight days between London, kingston and Ottawa. So we're in like four or five different provinces maybe across the country For that tour, done work at the Calgary Stampede, ponoka Stampede, a lot of the other big professional events across the country Strathmore, armstrong, dotson Creek, bc. So a lot of the year is spent on the audio music production side of things. And then the third piece is our podcast and clothing line, which is Cowboy Shit, I think yesterday I recorded the 165th episode of the show. We've had over half a million downloads on the podcast and our clothings in over 100 stores in North America. Yeah, there's a few of us working in everything cowboy now and I'm doing my best to build a business and manage everything Awesome, man.
Speaker 4:The podcast. Let's talk about the podcast very quickly, because it's kind of speaks to the brand, I imagine. So the name Cowboy Shit I assume you guys are just trying to basically encapsulate like what it is to be a cowboy these days in 2024 and is that kind of what the podcast focuses around that's a good line.
Speaker 1:I think I'm going to write that down to use for another time, because one of the things we ask everybody is what their definition of cowboy shit is, and so far there have been none that have been the same. They're all different, obviously. Right, it means something else to everybody differently. Yesterday the guy talked to his name, lee Olson. He's one of the top farriers, probably in the US, maybe one of the top in the world. You guys in the equestrian world would know Grant Moon probably have you heard that name. Yeah, so he's had Grant. They're good friends and he's learned from Grant and he has a ton of videos and a ton of assets online. He's got like 11 million views of his videos online.
Speaker 1:But his definition of cowboy shit was the everyday kind of ranch and he grew up on a ranch in South Dakota 10,000 acre ranch and for him it was a bit different than a guy. For example, nick Tetz is a professional bull rider. He's on rides for the Arizona Ridge Riders for the PBR Team Series, and Nick grew up in the city of Calgary, where I live right now, which is in the city of Calgary, home of the Calgary Stampede. But Nick was a hockey player and turned professional bull rider now. So he didn't grow up around horses as much like to my knowledge. He grew up in town and now he's a professional bull rider.
Speaker 1:So cowboy shit to him is not growing up on a ranch and riding horses every day, it's being a professional bull rider as a professional athlete, and he's in the gym every day probably and spending a lot of time on his fitness and his nutrition and that side of it, on the athlete side, where lee was an athlete too, as a saddle bronc rider and a team roper and really cowboy that way, if you're talking cowboy shit but nixon, a lot of cowboy shit too. So there's a lot of different definitions, a lot of different ways that we can do these things.
Speaker 4:so absolutely defining cowboy is probably exactly what we're trying to do yeah, I mean I was gonna ask this later, but I'm gonna ask it now because we're here. So your friend who was a townie and then became a professional bull rider after leaving hockey and you said he's in the gym and he's focusing on nutrition and stuff. Call me completely naive, but is that quite common in the bull riding scene for people to dial in their nutrition for the sport? I would have thought that's not the stereotype that someone like me, who doesn't know much about it, would think of the bull riding scene.
Speaker 1:I think it's changed Well. So the PBR just for history's sake, for those that might not know, pbr Professional Bull Riders was founded in 1992. The first events were kind of like 93, but their first full season was 1994. So there's been PBR events in five or six different countries. So currently they had a show in New Zealand at one point, but currently Australia, canada, the US and Brazil, so technically it's those four countries and they're all involved and the brazilian guys. I want to say that the brazilian guys have really made a difference in the athlete side of it, because a lot of those guys they're not going to the bar every night and they're not drinking beer every time, like it's less of a party being on the tour.
Speaker 4:The stereotype is like I get shit faced. It's like the military. I go out, I do crazy shit all day and then I go to the pub with my mates and I get wasted and then the next day turn up and do crazy shit again and that's kind of like in some respects. That's like the more romantic side of the idea of it is like it's a good lifestyle, especially if you're a young single guy. Just working the circuit sounds like great fun but I think that's changed.
Speaker 1:Well, it definitely has changed in the last 25. Well, pbr is 30 years old this year, in 2024. So they are athletes and they're competing for millions of dollars every year and it's changed. They're not you, you know.
Speaker 1:You guys probably know JB Mooney from doing research in the Western world now and he smoked cigarettes and drink beer or whatever. Like you know, he's kind of the badass and he won more than anybody and he beat himself up more than anybody. But there's guys now like who am I trying to think of? Jose Vitor Leme. So he's off the top of my memory. I think he's two-time PBR world champion at this point but has ridden some of the best bulls, but I think don't quote me on this for sure, but they talk about him being a high-level soccer player previously.
Speaker 1:So he's like probably I'd have to look up his stats, but just off memory he's probably 5'6" top. So he's tiny, probably weighs 145, 150 maybe, and can ride any bull in the world and had a few matchups with this bull called Woopa and he was 98 and three quarter points on this bull Probably. You know, we can argue about it, I can argue about it with anybody, but it was probably one of the best bull rides in history, ever, right. So those two are both athletes and I think he rode them like three, four or five times but he was like 90, almost 99 points. He was 97 and three quarters like just made some of the best rides ever, but he's a total athlete. Like he's up against JB. They could both ride some of the rankers bulls, but Jose, I don't want to.
Speaker 4:Yeah rather than being like a natural talent, he's is more like a dedicated skill and effort and ties in like his core strength, so he can manage everything better while he's in the ride yeah, I don't, I don't know how to compare him otherwise that.
Speaker 1:But I'm just saying the athlete side. I'm not calling JB not an athlete, but he probably, I think he'd even tell you he probably could have took better care of himself I mean it makes total sense from the perspective of like.
Speaker 4:Again, there's like someone. You've participated in the sport yourself and you've ridden bulls, but like from an outsider, you're like god, how do these guys not get injured all the time? How do they continue to get injured and continue to just get back at it without like having. You would think it would be a very, very short-lived sport as a career and I, I suppose taking care of doing everything you can, even if it's just like a mental security blanket, doing everything you can with your nutrition and in the gym and everything to basically feel like you're doing what you can to prolong your career, would make sense.
Speaker 1:Just my own personal experience. I rode the best and probably won the most per average when I was playing hockey when I was a kid in high school three times a day sometimes, and going to the gym and working out. That was the best shape. I was playing hockey when I was a kid in high school, three times a day sometimes, and going to the gym and working out. That was the best shape I was ever in. I probably rode the best and most consistently then.
Speaker 4:So this switch from basically being something that people I don't want to say again and correct me where I'm misspeaking but bull riding being something that people kind of fell into, versus something that people treated like a professional career. You mentioned that the Brazilians kind of came in and changed the game. Was it the fact that the Brazilians just had a different approach or was it more that, like once the sport grew in popularity and more prize money became available, people started to take it more seriously?
Speaker 1:I think probably the latter. If I'm looking at the intersection of when it maybe changed, I think it's probably on the PBR side of things, although no, I think I'd have to go back to the PBR side just because they're in different markets all the time. They have an event in New York City and have had for 20-some years at Madison Square Garden, and they're in Chicago and they're in all the major centers in North America and they really took a product and put it on a really big stage. And now they have the World world finals this year at AT&T stadium where the Dallas Cowboys play, and there's an event, uh, the day before the finals with Kid Rock and they're doing a bigger rodeo. So my point would be I think having the different eyes and the different media on the sport more consistently has changed it from being uh, there still are the guys that will go and ride in the circuits in the PRCA or ride in the. The PBR has different tours, so maybe the velocity tour there's some guys that'll go ride there on the weekends maybe. But on the athlete side, especially with the teams in the last few years, there's a lot more investment on the rider side than there ever has been when the last 20 years it's been mostly investment on the bull side. A lot of different folks had money on bulls and whatnot, but now they can be a team owner in some capacities.
Speaker 1:So the Brazilians obviously did things differently. And for those that don't know, I spent a lot of time in Brazil, but it's not about me. But when I was down there they said that bull riding is the second most live attended sport in Brazil, next to soccer. So they have a whole different format down there. When I went down there we would go down there and ride for like four days in one town, this big festival, big event and there's music after and huge concerts and like just massive what they're doing in bull riding. But for the brazilian bull riders one of the biggest things I see that as a difference is that for a brazilian guy and I think technically like I'd have to look at the stats but brazil is technically a third world country, still right, it's probably second world, but like it's probably a wider discrepancy there's a lot of variation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, probably second, maybe first, I don't know. But right, I don't want to. Yeah, I'm not trying to devalue it, it's just not a first world Western country, yeah, so I'm not trying to offend anybody there, I'm just saying for a Brazilian bull rider, they can go and win money in bull riding and make a lot better living than anything else they could do. Where in North America I could go get a regular job and probably make more money than I did if I was bull riding. So there's that little bit of difference where they can go and make a living and get out of poverty, where there's some people that grew up on dirt floor houses in Brazil that go and make millions of dollars riding bulls, where that just isn't the case for North American bull riders. I think in my opinion, the Brazilian riders are taking it a little more seriously as a path to wealth, honestly, rather than career choice in North America.
Speaker 4:Right. You made the comment that historically, people well investors would invest more on the bull side than the rider's side. What does that mean? How does the economics of bull riding work? That you would invest in a bull?
Speaker 1:So for a long time. And still today there are people that want to be involved in professional bull riding and, historically, stock contractors on the rodeo side of things. One stock contractor would have all the stock at a rodeo and they manage the whole thing right. It's their stock, they run it, they bring it all, it's all under their name. But on the PBR side of things I don't know how this would have started. I'm kind of curious if it was a ABBI thing and ABBI is American Bucking Bull Inc.
Speaker 1:But they had registration on all the bulls and they kind of like changed the game that way. As far as the bloodlines went, it's more of on high-end horses, whether it's racing or cutting or reining or whatever that might be. So they changed the game that way with the investment on the bulls. And then there got to be outside investors involved in these bulls and the PBR made the point of bringing the best bulls to every show. So instead of one contractor bringing all the bulls they would have 30 different people all bring their best bulls. So you have all the best bulls in one place, or it's 15 bringing their best, two rather than just one contractor having the whole show and they have a whole uneven pen of bulls, right?
Speaker 1:So that changed and there's been like I don't have it all memorized, but one that comes to mind is Larry the Cable Guy. He had a few bulls over the years where he had money in bucking bulls and there was Larry the Cable Guy's getter done, like there was a bull called getter done. That was when Larry was an investor. Is Larry the cable guy? Is that like a Canadian.
Speaker 1:No, he's the comedian, he's one of the blue collar comedy guys. He's the voice of Mater in the Cars series. He was one of the top comedians in the world for years. Yeah, like big time people, and he's only one that came to mind. But there were like probably hundreds, if not thousands, of different people that had these bucking bulls over the years and that was kind of their. Yeah, one of the pieces where they can be involved and be at the events and be involved that way. Right. So there was a lot of investment on the bull side of things and the bulls, I think, got a bit better than the riders for a while. The bull gets paid every time they show up at an event and then there's bonuses for the world champion bull, Like I think now and I'm sorry I don't have this in front of me- wow.
Speaker 4:So when the committee or the show managers basically went change from the single contractor model to having individual bulls turn up, all of a sudden there was a lot more opportunity for your bull to qualify to participate in an event and if it turned up it got money. And therefore it was worth investing in good bulls because rather than either having the contract or not having the contract now, you could potentially win money with your.
Speaker 1:You'd earn money from your bull on any single event and they had competitions where just the bulls competed and the top bulls would make money that way. Right where it was just bull competitions, there wasn't even any rider part of it, especially on the younger side, the futurity and derby side, three and two, like now they're going down to yearlings, like all the way from yearlings to four-year-olds all bulls compete. So anyways, my point being there was a huge investment on the bull side, but there was not the same investment on the rider side. The riders are all independent contractors and they didn't have any back support unless they could find their own sponsors Until now we have the team series. That only started in technically. I think the first season was. 2022 is the first year.
Speaker 1:Nashville won 23,. Texas Rattlers won 24 will be the third season. But now there's team owners and the team owners. There's that huge investment on the team side now where Austin Dillon from NASCAR, his whole crew and I think it's Richard Childress Racing, maybe that owns the team in some capacity, but there's like Teton Ridge owns the Ridge Riders in Arizona. And there's a new ownership group in Florida now where there's I think they're called the Florida Freedom Texas Rattlers, I think are partially owned by Ariat in some part of maybe Ariat's a big partner of theirs or whatnot, but Nashville Stampede is owned by the people that own Western Horsemen.
Speaker 1:And there's investment on the team side now where the riders have support for a nutrition coach and a riding coach and a mental performance coach, where that has never happened before in our sport, to where that All those assets were available on the rider side because they've all only been independent and it was all like hey, you can go to a bull riding school or you can have a coach of your own, but you got to pay that guy. And we got to credit Jared Allen for having this pro bull team. He was a former NFL I think he was. I don't know what his position he played, but he was pretty big time in the NFL side of things. But he had his pro bull team and he was thinking this before it happened. And there's probably lots of conversations. But that investment on the team side has only happened in the last few years to where the bulls at the team events. In my opinion, a little bit less important now because the focus on the teams and building that side of the sport.
Speaker 4:And is the prize money large enough that these are like legitimate financial investments that they will get a good return on the investment, or is it more a case of like the prize money is nice to have, it's not a need to have. But the companies that are investing in these professional teams leverage the brand of the team to then sell other products and advertising and sponsorships and all this other stuff, and that's kind of how they monetize the asset.
Speaker 1:I think that's part of it. One of the team assets, to my knowledge, is they host a local event. So Nashville has their event in August, which has been one of the main tour events for the last 20 years. Noah's in Nashville right now and it's at Bridgetown Arena right downtown Nashville where the Nashville Predators play hockey right. So there's an event there that they can sell 20,000 tickets a day for this bull riding event and I think it's probably still partially owned by the PBR that way. But that's a huge event that Nashville can host and Fort Worth can host one with the Rattlers and I think there's one in well, there's a Carolina Cowboys have their event and Arizona has their event in Phoenix and they all host their home shows. So that's one of the pieces that can generate them revenue, plus team sponsorships. So I mentioned Ariat with the Texas Rattlers who won the team series last year, and then there's the Western Horsemen connection with Nashville, and then they have Dan Post Boots as one of their partners. But each team can sell their own sponsorship for their own guys on their own team jerseys and team gear and team chaps and whatnot, and then the merchandise is obviously part of it for each team.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I don't. There's probably besides, some of the pride, like the prize money should all go to. The is all one of the bull riders at this point. But yeah, I wonder, like for the teams. At one point I think that the teams were about a two million dollar investment for the team owners to where now I think the last ones are maybe like 20. So just being on the bottom floor of that team series, I think that's a pretty huge asset and we know I remember thinking Forbes the other day about sports franchises and just the value that there is in the sports franchise world right now. It's kind of unbelievable the buying and selling of those teams because they're a fixed asset.
Speaker 4:There's only so many teams in the four major leagues at this point, right, yeah, they divide up the territories and then the territories become more valuable, because you can't just create a new territory, a new team.
Speaker 1:So anyways, hopefully that kind of answers your question in a bit of a roundabout way.
Speaker 4:No, that's fascinating that it's kind of gone through that inflection where because I mean it does you know, especially with like things like Teton Ridge and stuff coming online, it does feel like the Western world and the Western horse riding world and bull riding being associated with that is going through kind of a renaissance where it's becoming the next generation of what it could be and people attribute it to, you know, to the Yellowstone effect. Let's talk about Yellowstone, I think that's you know, put a little bit of gas on the fire, but obviously isn't the sole responsibility. I think it just you know. Do you have any theories on what the main driving force is for this sudden ramp up and professionalization of the space?
Speaker 1:I don't want to say it's professionalization of the space. I don't know if that's how I would say it, but or commercialization, then it's becoming more commercialized.
Speaker 4:It sounds like.
Speaker 1:Well, to be honest, I don't know what Teton Ridge does and I don't know what they're Besides putting on one event. I don't know what they do, I don't know who the owner is, I don't know what the. It's kind of a bit of a mystery what they are, what they do and what like how they're making money. Like they're putting on a, the american rodeo, which they purchased from rfd tv, which is technically the owners of the cowboy channel, as far as I know. So they purchased the event. Now they're going to have post malone at this event at global life stadium, which is right across the street from ak tnt where the dallas cowboys play. But if we're looking at western like, where beyonce has a country music album now and Western is trending I don't want to contribute at all to Yellowstone. I think they're a big part of kind of Western like what I could I say Western Renaissance Would that be a proper?
Speaker 4:kind of I'll let you do it, Go for it.
Speaker 1:Does that, does that make sense, though, where it's like?
Speaker 4:yeah, yeah, it's become more of a you know referred to everything as a spaghetti western it was kind of like a pun of jokes and now western. You know, I think yellowstone went a long way right to, especially during covid, when everyone was like glorified this more simple, honorable, morally driven approach to life and connection with the land and that kind of you know was enough of a kernel placed in a lot of people's minds for them to really start to be more interested in, like where does Hollywood meet reality and what are those real things that I can do to feel like I can get in touch with this way of life?
Speaker 1:Well, I guess this makes me think about a time when I was in Winnipeg, manitoba, at one of our PBR events and one of the people from the building said that I like this event because it's authentic and it's real. And I because it's authentic and it's real and I'm not going to say yellowstone is 100 authentic. They obviously missed a couple pieces. It's not totally perfect that way. But this guy in winnipeg said you guys are real, like it's not like the circus, it's not like I shouldn't say the circus, it's not like the wwe where it's all scripted. It's not like it's, it's real life, like it's man versus beast, it's raw, it's real and it's authentic. It's not staged show. It's still unpredictable and real Totally.
Speaker 4:So, on that point right, the Hollywood does make out the cowboy life to be, you know, quite a romantic notion. What is the reality of the career of someone who is professionally engaged in Western sports and disciplines Like how much time do you have to spend on the road? How much money can you make? How stressed are you about paying your bills, if you aren't like breaking through all those sorts of things Like what is the reality versus like the Hollywood version?
Speaker 1:I don't know what the Hollywood version would be on the athlete side, because there's only been a few Hollywood makes of actual rodeo. Competition where we're talking like eight seconds was one of the main kind of actual rodeo movies, right, Like if we're talking that way. So, but they didn't really talk about the money or what they were winning and back then it wasn't a crazy amount. I think maybe Lane Frost, when he won the world in 87, he might have made $100,000, which in 87 was a lot of money. But now $100,000 isn't as much money technically right, You're not getting rich with 100 grand and you got a lot of expenses.
Speaker 1:The guys on the road early on are living cheap. When I was rodeoing I won $4,000 at a rodeo one time and I thought I'd never be broke again. And now, yeah, $4,000 is a lot of money but it doesn't go as far when we got a house to pay for and vehicle payments and insurance and all the bills where back then I was living in a guy's shop I had a microwave and a fridge and a shower and a toilet and a sink and a bed, Happy as a pup with two tails.
Speaker 4:Had everything you needed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, have everything I need. I got a place to live. I got a car to drive. Like you know, it's paid for there's. We were living cheap, right, and we're traveling with seven people at the time, depending on what's going on Like so we're not. The expenses aren't super high Our in a day. Their costs are low. But when we get further along in the career the costs get higher and some people might have a family or they're buying their houses and whatnot, so the costs get higher. So then they got to win more and I don't think that it depends where people are going.
Speaker 1:But somebody right now in Canadian rodeo can go and make $50,000 to $70,000 rodeo and plus their endorsements and sponsorships and whatnot, but I still don't think it's a great. Unfortunately it's not a great living and it's still a hobby because it's only six months of the year and it's still only Some people can go and ride 20 times. If you're a guy like a few years ago, his name was Jake Vold and he would go to the minimum 15 rodeos in Canada and he would probably pretty much win everything and he could win $75,000 and only be away from home for 20 days a year. So that's a pretty good return on your time. But if you're going to 50 rodeos and you're only making $20,000, then it's a hobby at best, right?
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Speaker 1:So most riders have second jobs, then I would say, at the Canadian level for sure there's a few that make their living full-time, but it's only very few, or if they are making a living, they don't have a lot of expenses yet at this point. So in the US, though, it's a different story, because now a guy like Zeke Thurston is a four-time world champion. He's from Big Valley, Alberta, which is northeast of Calgary, about probably two and a half hours, if I'm guessing right, and he won almost a half million dollars last year half a million US not including his endorsements, sponsorships and whatever else he's making. So he's making a dang good living, but he's the world champion right now. I could look up what the 15th guy made, and he probably only made 120 000, but he probably spent 100 000 and he hasn't paid himself yet. Technically right. So there's a lot of. There's a bit of a gap there, but a lot of the money has went up. The new nfr deal that kicked in I don't know how long ago it was now, it might have already been eight, nine years ago, but the top people are making a lot of money, but the bottom end and they're still making the national finals at 15th and they're.
Speaker 1:Technically Some of those people aren't making any money, especially on the time event side They've got. I was talking with Lee yesterday, the farrier, and he said your truck now to haul your horses is $100,000. Your trailer is another $125,000. So you're $225,000 just to your truck and trailer. And your truck wears out every few years but based on how many miles you're putting on it. And then you got a horse, the horse, and you got to travel all the time like there's hardly. You got to be really really doing good or training and selling horses to really make a living, kind of rodeoing at this point, especially the china event end. So the very top end are making money. But a lot of other folks are doing it because they love it right.
Speaker 4:So is it kind of similar to the english world, in which the folks at the lower end you know, a lot of them are horse trainers and they have a training business that they use to pay the bills and then on weekends, or like one weekend a month, they take the excess cash they've earned to get out on the road and go compete?
Speaker 4:That's probably a fair comment, yeah, yeah, and is it similar to the English world in that you've kind of got this difference, this tranche, which is you've got the people at the top who, whether through performing and getting to the top and getting attention, that they've got money or they've got private backing, by like a sponsor or like a high net worth individual who pays all their bills, which then creates this issue in which they have more opportunity to compete, they get better, they get more sponsorships, they get more attention, they get more money and they get further and further and further above and away from the rest, and the rest basically have this like almost impossible tranche to jump over, which is they're always at that lower end, the top end of the lower end, and they're struggling to jump into that top tranche, because that's kind of how the English world works a lot and it comes down to the motivation of the individual, like of just grinding, grinding, grinding, hoping to get good enough, get enough money, compete enough, get a good enough stats that they can then break into that top tranche.
Speaker 4:Is it kind of the same in the Western world?
Speaker 1:I don't think so. Maybe on some of the timed events, like maybe the barrel racing, just because the horses are so great, like you got to really have the assets, you got to really work hard, or, like I would say, maybe just by the barrier to entry, on the cost to get into it.
Speaker 4:Well, as in so barrel racing, the horses. In barrel racing you can kind of pay to play, can't you Like we've got to have one of to really compete at the top end.
Speaker 1:I'm assuming. So I don't know that world, like I'm not inside it enough to know really where they're at with that, but that's my assumption. Like you've got to have a really great horse and I think some of the people can get away with having the great horse and maybe not being the best rider. So I would say that the barrier to entry on the barrel racing side is probably tougher, but I could be totally wrong.
Speaker 1:Barrel racing can't go and train the best horse and go and win a bunch of money. That's absolutely possible too, but it's probably less likely than buying your way in to go and do it. So I might be wrong on that one and I'll probably offend some barrel racers on saying that they can do that. But on the rough stock side, a guy can go and buy a bull rope, just like some of the Brazilian bull riders. They can go buy a bull rope and they a little gear bag and go and make a living without having all the other pieces on the roping side maybe. Or you don't have to have a horse, you don't have a trailer, you don't have to do that.
Speaker 4:You can just go jump in and go win right, right do you think that lower barrier to entry, which results in more people trying it right, do you think that contributes to the growth and the popularity of bull riding? It attracts more people, which which attracts more attention, which attracts more money, which makes the economy bigger, which results in more excess funds that could go into monetizing the sport, commercializing the sport, advertising it, etc.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely on the bull riding side, but the other side of it, though, is that it's dangerous. Right, people die bull riding every year. So, yeah, anybody can go get on and do it. But just for example, cowboy Cerrone from the UFC is getting on bulls right now, and he's got a match against the full high level PBR Bucking Bull in May, and he's a world-class athlete on the UFC side of things. He had a fight with Conor McGregor at the peak of McGregor's career, and he's trying to get on bulls right now, and he's terrible at it. He's better than a lot of people that might start it from nothing, but the other side of it is still dangerous. He's getting on a bucking bull, and he could potentially be killed by this bull. There's no guarantees that he's making it out alive.
Speaker 1:Bull riding. You're putting your life on the line every single time, so he's getting on a lot of practice bulls. There was a video I was watching last night where he's getting on a bunch of practice bulls and whatnot, but he's not even really riding those ones yet, and he's going to get on a bull. That's an actual bucker in you know three months time, and he's got a long ways to get there, cause it's not like I would be surprised unless somebody rode horses and rode like.
Speaker 1:I think the only way to about it is riding horses. You have to be riding horses and maybe be riding jumpers or something like. That's the only thing that would compare to bull riding immediately. So you have to be like a really high level jumper and know the form where you're out ahead of the horse and you get your hips back down when they're going this way, like when they kick up in the back end. That's the only way that someone could be good at bull riding immediately is if they had that feeling, because otherwise they're just holding on and it's a disaster, like there's no chance.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so considering the danger, considering the high propensity for injuries in the bull riding scene and considering the financial uncertainty of it all, does that mean that it is mainly a game for people who are in their 20s, their young 20s? Oh yeah, absolutely. And do most people basically, when they what age do they kind of you know retire? And when they do retire, is it mainly because of the all right I didn't make it? It's time to grow up and get a real job and have some financial certainty, or is it more of a I'm injured, or is it more a case of like I've developed a conscience and a fear? What is the main thing that forces guys I assume it's mostly guys out of the sport?
Speaker 1:Yeah, probably there's more people that just go away, like me. I just don't enter again because I realize I don't need to do that anymore and I'm like, okay, yeah, this was a lot of fun and I love it and I want to do it, but also it's dangerous and I busted my shoulder up and had to get surgery on the shoulder and then had to you know how many concussions and whatnot. So, yeah, definitely more people leave the sport because of those reasons in their 20s at some point. Like I haven't been on a bull since I was 23 and I haven't competed since I was 21. So it's been a long time for me. Me and I only start. I only made it like a little over a decade because I started in the steer riding in 2002 and then when I got on my first bull in 05 and then I was done competing essentially by 2021. So, yeah, very short career, even if you do ride at a high level, and I only rode at a high level a couple times and only won like a couple times too.
Speaker 1:So and I was successful in the bull riding thing, like slightly successful as far as like winning at that high level and that's's. I only won a couple of times, but like I felt like I could do it a little bit and had a chance and I still wasn't that good right, there are people that are doing really well, like there's people that are doing really well that actually get to retire. It's very, there's very few blow riders that actually get to retire properly. I guess is what I should really say.
Speaker 4:Yeah. So what's the average age of those that are year? He's the world best, but let's say the top 10 is. Is it the sort of thing that you peak young and then you make your success young, or is it more like you peak young, you get notoriety in your early 20s but you really come into your own your late 20s?
Speaker 1:if I was looking at it objectively, based on the stats, I would say that the it's earlier because the last few years on the american side the world champions like jess lockwood won his first one. I don't know if it was 19 or 21 or 22. He won two world titles before he was 24 years old, I think, and then we haven't seen him as much since His body gets broke down and hurt and whatnot. And we haven't seen him as much since then. Jalen Swearengin won the PBR world title pretty early on. I think he was 20 something. Jose won his all two or three really early on. And then you've got some. Jb Mooney won later in his career. He probably won at like 27 and 29-ish. I would think I could be wrong on those numbers, but he won a little bit later on.
Speaker 1:Adriano Moraes is one of the Brazilian ball artists who do very well. He won his first one in 94. Then he won again in 03, I believe, and then actually won another one in there somewhere too, maybe 2000. But he won his last one. He was like 36. So he was one of the few guys that rode to later in his career. But then you got a guy like Justin McBride. He won two world titles in 05 and 07. And he retired at the top and I think he wasn't even 30, which was kind of almost premature retirement, but he wanted to leave that on the top.
Speaker 1:So it's very rare to have a bull rider at a very high level at a past 30, five, I would say. I think I can safely say that there's very few, like there's one or two going right now. Uh, ed and I, cameen has was a pbr world champion, I think. Oh, two, if I remember right, and he's still competing. He's like almost, if not 40. And then joao ricardo, vieta, vieta is, I want to say, 37 or 8, and just won at the pbr's highest level this spring. So, but it's super rare, he's the oldest, probably by five years, if I was guessing on that tour, maybe more right. What are?
Speaker 4:the most common injuries in bull riding. I'm sure anything can happen, but like, are there like common injuries that pretty much everyone's kind of experienced, like a broken wrist or, as you said, like torn ligaments in your shoulder?
Speaker 1:I'd have to ask somebody with for the actual stats. I don't, I don't know on that. Like it'd be a ton of broken bones and dislocated shoulders and concussions, like I don't want to tell you the answer. It's probably knees at some point, but I don't know on that one.
Speaker 4:Oh, I knew the name but I couldn't. I had name recognition but I didn't know what he did.
Speaker 1:Who Mooney.
Speaker 4:Who are we talking about? No, I was asking. He's like you didn't know who Larry the Cable Guy is. I was like I knew I had name recognition but I didn't know what he did.
Speaker 1:And there's lots more people on the investment side, on the bull side, but I I just don't remember who they are right now. Like, as far as famous people that had bulls, there's a guy named bernie topp and I think I forget what his role was, but flint just posted a picture. Let me just look who he is. I think he had something to do with elton john. Oh yeah, I think he helped wrote songs with elton john. He had somehow he was involved with bulls. He was just at the event the other day in los angeles. So yeah, anyways, there's like there. So, yeah, anyways, there was a lot of investment and probably still is a lot of investment on the bull side, with people with a lot of cash that are, you know, it's a hobby for them, honestly, and they're putting money into the bull side of things.
Speaker 4:So the question I'm asking now is so we've spent, you know, 45 minutes now talking about bull riding and again, you know I say this as someone who hasn't got a lot of exposure to the Western horse sport world why is bull riding considered part of western horse sports and inside the industry like? So inside the community are there cultural clashes between people who like purists, who are like no, bull riding it's not really like part of western horse sports, western horse sports or horses like. How has it become part of that culture?
Speaker 1:well, it was one of the original rodeo events, traditional like, like the Professional Rodeo Cowboys Association, the PRCA. Their core events are bareback riding, steer wrestling, team roping, saddle bronc riding, tie-down roping, barrel racing and bull riding. It's traditionally seven events, so bull riding has traditionally been the last event also, so bull riding has, as far to my knowledge, has always been a part of rodeo in Western sports. I talk of bull riding a little differently because the professional bull riders, pbr, like we talked about, broke off in the early 90s and formed their own association and their own company. It was and is a for-profit company, now owned by Endeavor, which also owns the UFC.
Speaker 1:So there's been a few different investors, different times, but bull riding in the PBR is the only I might be wrong saying the only but it's the leader, in my opinion, in Western sports because it's an actual business.
Speaker 1:We talked previously on the formats of the organizations, but the biggest difference with the PBR is that it's a business where the PRCA is a nonprofit organization run by the Cowboys inside the organization, where the PBR was started by the Cowboys and it's morphed and changed into the business side that it is today.
Speaker 1:But the PBR, if you go to an event in New York City and you go to an event in Seattle or Tacoma or Sacramento, los Angeles, you're going to see a very similar event with the top people at those events.
Speaker 1:Some of the different tours will have different riders, but they have a real product and they own everything wherever they're going. They own the trucks, they own the trailers, they own the steel, they own the trailers, they own the steel, they own and have a similar show everywhere they go, where, if you're in the PRCA and the rodeo side of things, you've got a rodeo in Cheyenne that's going to look a heck of a lot different than the rodeo this week in San Antonio or the rodeo in Tucson, where those are all put on by separate committees that take the profit for their own committees or they're all nonprofit committees when the PBR owns those events. They sell the tickets, they make or break it on the ticket sales and it's a business where rodeo is very fractured, in my opinion, and it's fragmented, fractured and it's not run like the business that the that the PBR is.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I'm trying to make sense of this because it's just something that, as I like try to like learn the industry at, like struggling with my head around, so the thing I can compare it to right is so okay. So, actually, before I say that, so I was looking at this the other day. So the prca, right, they set all the rules, so all the rules that you have to follow, even if it's in the pbr like the incorrect pbr is their own prca was kind of like the authority of like what are the rules that all the different events follow?
Speaker 1:not only for a prca event. So prca has their own events. Pbr is totally separate. Whatever happens in the prca has nothing to do with what happens in the pbr. Pca has their own events. Pbr is totally separate. Whatever happens in the PRCA has nothing to do with what happens in the PBR. Pbr has their own rules.
Speaker 4:Right. So is it fair to say then that basically, if you are a serious bull rider and that is kind of your career and your passion, your choice, you basically put all your eggs in one basket and invest and immerse yourself in the PBR ecosystem, and then PRCA events might have a bull riding component of it, but it's kind of like for the hobbyists in the bull riding world.
Speaker 1:If you said that to a PRCA bull rider, they would probably be offended. And I don't think that's correct, because Kai Hamilton won almost $600,000 in the PRCA in the bull riding last year alone. Stetson Wright is from Utah, one of the Wright family, which is a huge rodeo family in the Western world. He won almost a million dollars between Saddlebronk and bull riding in the 2022 season, which is one of the best seasons of all time. Sage Kimsey was, and is, a seven-time PRCA world champion bull rider and has competed in the PBR side of things for a long time, but comparatively he's won more money in the PRCA in the bull riding side of things than almost anybody in the PBR in the same time span.
Speaker 1:It's not like you're saying. It's not a hobby thing on the PRCA. It's just two different organizations that have split off at different times and bull riders have the choice to do either In the recent times. Cody Teal spent a lot of time in the PBR, but he's back in the PRCA now. Shane Proctor spent a lot of time in the PBR, but he's in the PRCA again.
Speaker 1:Jb Mooney spent a lot of time in the PBR and then made the NFR, which is a PRCA event, just a couple of years ago he finished his career in the PRCA. So it's two totally different organizations and both are very legitimate. I think that the bulls are more consistently harder to ride and probably at a higher level in the PBR and there's a higher level of competition more often in the PBR. A quick little example is that nobody in the PBR is ever going to win any money with a score of 78 points, which is a pretty subpar score in bull riding at this point. Where in the PRCA at the National Finals Rodeo, if there's two rides in a round of 15 guys, you're going to win a lot of money with a 78 point ride?
Speaker 1:Just for example and you can maybe go to a lot of smaller rodeos and win enough money to go make the NFR you could go to 100 rodeos and win $1,000 at all of them and make the NFR, where somebody else in the PRCA, sage Kimsey, would go to 30 rodeos and win $150,000 or $200,000 and make the finals at the same time. So there's a lot of variation in the competition on the PRCA side in my opinion.
Speaker 4:Right. So Is it fair to say then that the PRCA so there's a lot? It sounds like there are a lot more PRCA events and it's kind of like a you can participate at, come and go as you want sort of thing, because it's not a for-profit business with like licensing, exclusivity and all that sort of stuff. And then on the PBA side, because it is more of a purist endeavor on focus on bull riding, they control the event, they have a more consistent event, they have a more consistent standard and the quality of competition. But as a result, it sounds like a lot of riders will then also have to then go sign like exclusivity contracts with the PBA, like they have to sign, like I'm going to only ride here for five years before I can go back and try a community event.
Speaker 1:No, there was a lawsuit a long time ago in the US about a right to work, so there's no exclusivity between the two. You can go ride at either one. But the PRCA has like 700 events in a year and the PBR probably has 200.
Speaker 4:Right. So why? When you say you just mentioned some of these riders who was over at PBA and now they're back at PRCA, I would have thought that every season would just be a mix of both then.
Speaker 1:It would be focus, I think, where the guys want to go. Not everybody can go and ride 150 bulls a year and it's pretty rare now for somebody to make the national finals rodeo in the PRCA and the PBR and ride the PBR at a high level at the same time. There's too many bulls to get on Right Gotcha.
Speaker 4:If cowboys compete in the PRCA events, do other sports beyond the bull riding? Do they compete in the roping and the reining and all that sort of stuff they can?
Speaker 1:yeah, that's what I'm saying with stetson right. He won almost a million dollars in one season. He's a elite saddle bronc rider too, which is a different event in rodeo. So he's an elite saddle bronc rider and an elite bull rider. So he's cleaning up right now and winning a ton of money.
Speaker 1:He is a world champion in the saddle bronc riding and the bull riding and which is also qualifies him for the all around. So I think he's won nine world titles already and he's only probably 24 or something, maybe younger. Stetson has competed in the PBR, but he's going to spend most of, if not all, of, his career in rodeo in the PRCA because he can compete in both events in the PRCA, so he can be the king of the PRCA and be their all around champion, which is their number one marketed athlete where he can only ride bulls in the PBR number one marketed athlete where he can only ride bulls in the PBR. So he's not even really probably interested in the PBR because he can't do both events. He can make way more money faster, in my opinion, in the PRCA.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so the idea that you can win a lot more money. From all the conversations I've had with folks in the Western world, it seems to be that the ability to win prize money is the driving force in pretty much all these sports right? Whereas in the English world there is a semblance of while some events have prize money, most people compete for like points and titles, more so than they're motivated by prize money. So if prize money is a driving factor in the Western world and you've got the PBA and then you've got like PRCA, is there any semblance of like a season and points you've got to earn over the course of a year and a season and trying to win like a title as like the most the person who won the most points over the course of a year and who is the merchant of record who tracks all that and awards all that?
Speaker 1:well.
Speaker 1:So in the prca that would be the organization they're making the rules and they're administering the rodeos, essentially, right.
Speaker 1:So when I say world champion, stetson right goes to probably 70 PRCA rodeos and wins more money than anybody in either event and he's the world champion, right? That's what I was trying to say. That way is he's going to go to those events exclusively and go for those world titles, because they come with a few of the bonuses and the notoriety of being the world champ, and then for him, with all the different endorsements he has, there's bonuses on winning those titles for him on the sponsorship and endorsement side for winning those events, right. But on the PBR side, the PBR world champion who they've awarded a million dollar bonus to, that world champion since 2003, I think it was. That's the goal for all those guys in that main tour is to win that million dollars, right, because it's paid out over 10 years. So it's $100,000 a year for 10 years and that's obviously the goal. If you can win a million dollars in one season, you're going for that title, right, and that's PBR tracking those points.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4:So the reason I'm asking all these questions about exactly how this all works is, if we zoom this out and we look at this from a business perspective, does having these competing associations, or business and association, does it have a net positive or a net negative impact on the sport by like splitting the attention of the viewers, the fans, et cetera?
Speaker 4:And I say that because if you think about most traditional sports that are very successful, such as like the NFL and hockey and all that sort of stuff, a large part of the success is the idea of a season, the idea that everyone can get around and understand they're competing to get to the top of this round robin at the end of the year in which they win, and it's being able to follow the players and follow the teams and understand the implications of their decisions and their results and how it affects the rest of the season. That allows us all to tell ourselves a story that gets us engaged in the sport. Horse sports are quite different in the sense that a lot of them are like individual events and we don't really view it as a season to really get excited about over the course of a year. So that's very much the case in the English world. So in the Western world does the two associations kind of make it hard to follow a season, or does it all still kind of work?
Speaker 1:I think that the PRCA model, which is a board of directors that is made up of the current membership, is not conducive to the growth of the sport overall. And it's especially difficult for the PRCA and pro rodeo to move forward because they don't put on any of their own events, unlike the PBR where they can go, do whatever they want to, because they can go and build a team's series. They can build their normal Unleash the Beast tour where the world champion wins the million dollars, right. I think that if rodeo is going to properly move forward as a sport, they have to create a different model, and I'm not sure if that's going to be done by the PRC. I think they're only in the business of administering the rodeos and they're not even interested in changing that model. So it is fractured. But they're definitely two different products at this point. But I could see I'm just speculating right now with the PBR venturing into the rodeo with this event that Kid Rock is doing, and they're doing it with teams. So it's a one-day, one-off rodeo, but they're doing a rodeo with teams. So I think that there could be an elite tour that comes on board where all the major rodeos get involved. But there's still going to have to be a consistent product and a consistent season that can be properly promoted. Like you're mentioning, it's got to be a proper season that starts in March and goes to December. It starts in, maybe it starts in June and it goes till December, right, because the finals, I think, will still always be in Las Vegas. That's still the marquee event of rodeo In the PRCA side of things, the PBR with their team series.
Speaker 1:Looking 10 years down the road, I could see all PBR events being part of their team series and it being a six month season and anything else they do feeds into that team's series. And I could see the world champion at some point being the MVP of the season, kind of like the Conor McDavid or the Sidney Crosby in the NHL or the. You know it probably was. I guess Lamar Jackson was the MVP of the season in the NFL this year. But like that, I think the individual part of the PBR could maybe recede a little bit and it all be teams. There might be 12, 15, maybe there's 30 teams and there's 30 events throughout the year and that's the team's season and maybe that's the way it goes at some point, right, I think it makes it more simple for the fans to follow because, right, the PBR is still doing the best job of that side of it with having a consistent product everywhere we go, whereas the PRCA it's so fractured and there's so many different ways it's getting pulled.
Speaker 1:There has to be a major change for them to move forward properly, because it's honestly been, in my opinion, it's been quite stagnant for a long time and in Canada probably, honestly, it's been maybe tougher. Some of the rodeos now still pay the same that they paid 25 or 30 years ago, so that people competing are competing for way less money now than they did a long time ago. And it's a lot of these individual events might be doing well because they have great committees, but it still makes it tough because it's so fractured and these individual shows aren't working towards a common goal because they're not part of a major business right.
Speaker 4:So it's more of a decentralized decentralized system following having a centralized merchant of record and rule base, as opposed to a business that's running a streamlined operation with quality control.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so unless something drastically changes and it's probably not going to happen with the PRCA then Rodeo will probably stay the same and unfortunately I don't know how they're going to. I don't know what the solution is and I don't know what it'll take, but I hope we see some change and hope we see some positive. Did you say?
Speaker 4:PBR is they're hosting an event with Kid Rock that's actually going to have a horse riding component, so it's going outside of bull riding.
Speaker 1:Correct. Yeah, it's going to be a full rodeo event. Yeah, there's gonna be no bull riding at it. In fact, so interesting, that's going to be during the PBR's World Finals in Arlington in May just because you might find this interesting.
Speaker 4:So in the english world they've kind of got you know the same problem and the way they're kind of overcoming it and this has kind of really come to fruition in the last five years is, and it's particularly happening in, uh, show jumping because it's, you know, most spectator friendly sport. But they're starting, you'll start to see that they're around the world. There are these leagues popping up and the way these leagues are structured. So there's the long jeans global champions tour in europe and it's international but mainly in Europe and it's like a really big deal here in America.
Speaker 4:There's the I think it's called like the show jumping major leagues, something like that. I can't remember the name, but the way they've done it and the way they've structured it. To your point about teams versus individuals, is that so there are like 10 teams professionally, you know, privately owned and sponsored, and they compete over a set number of events over the course of a year and in each event, in each team there are six people and in each event all six ride, but the riders, the top three riders with the best scores, their scores count towards the team and so at the end of the year, whichever team has the best score over the 10 events wins. And then the best riders the top three riders with the best scores over the 10 events get crowned as individual champions. So it allows you, as a spectator, to follow the individuals as well as follow the team.
Speaker 1:Where would the Spruce Meadows here in Calgary fit in those tours, or is it a?
Speaker 4:one-off. So what they do is depending on the private league. So, for example, the Longines Global Champions Tour I'm 99% certain in saying that like those are Longines Global Championship Tours. Like they hire the facility and they run an event, that is that tour's event, whereas here in America Major League Show Jumping is what it's called. What they do is they don't. I think maybe a couple of events might be like Major League Show Jumping events, but the rest of the calendar is filled out by classes within pre-existing events. So there will be a pre-existing event that's taking place. 90%, 95% of the people who are participating in that event aren't involved in the major league show jumping, but these three classes are and all the teams go and compete in those three classes. So they leverage the existing events infrastructure to be able to string together a season, as opposed to investing all that operating capital upfront to run their own events from start to scratch.
Speaker 1:Sounds confusing.
Speaker 4:Well, I mean it all comes down to marketing and communications, right? Like, if you do this in the bull riding world, let's say you the rodeo world, let's say you took not the PBR, but the cowboy, the rodeo events, you could basically say, like we are creating this, this league. We've got a bunch of riders who have signed up to agree that they will participate in these 10 events over the course of a year and we're basically creating, we're just taking their performance in these 10 events and we're going to create the stats around it and then award a winner at the end of the year. And you don't need to invest any capital up front. It's literally. You could do it with a spreadsheet and some good and Canva and an Instagram account and you could create a league and the sponsor dollars you get from it you could put towards awarding the winner of that event and all you need to do is ensure that the Cowboys actually all turn up to all 10 events over the course of a year.
Speaker 1:It's a good idea. I might have to do that in my mind for it.
Speaker 4:So that's been amazing. I mean, I know I've asked you a lot of like entry level questions, but it's part of this podcast. A huge part of it is trying to get the Western world to understand the English world and the English world to understand the Western world, because understanding it goes a long way to being interested and therefore becoming a fan and creating more fans across the different disciplines, and also just like learning from each other, like what we can take to basically improve our sports in different areas. So that's been really helpful. So for people who want to, you know you're obviously extremely knowledgeable and your podcast, I imagine, is probably going to be a great place for people to go to get a lot more information about much more information similar to what we talked about today. So for the audience, who? Where can they find you? So you've got what's the podcast called.
Speaker 1:Cowboy Shit. So you can find us at cowboyshitca. We've got all the clothing and all the podcasts on there. So, yeah, check it out, cowboy Shit.
Speaker 4:It's easy to remember. Yeah, it should be. Yeah, all right, ted, that's been amazing. Thank you very much. I appreciate you for joining us today. Yeah, no worries, thanks for having me Take care man, thank you so much for listening to.
Speaker 3:the latest episode of the event management platform is now available to use. Now it's easier than ever to host, sign up and sponsor for any equestrian event in the world, thanks to all the features of the Pegasus app. To sign up, go to our homepage at wwwthepegasusapp. That is wwwthepegasusapp. See you next time.