Pegasus Podcast
@thepegasusapp https://www.thepegasus.app/🐴 Conversations with the movers and shakers of the global equestrian industry. Hosted by Pegasus founders Sam Baynes and Jen Tankel.
Pegasus Podcast
Capturing Global Equestrian with Photographer Morgan Froment
Morgan Froment is a France-based photographer who's traveled to the corners of the world to capture equestrian events.
From the nostalgic recounts of the Cannes show jumping scene to his own international endeavors, our journey with Morgan is a vivid exploration of heritage, passion, and the unbridled spirit of the equestrian community.
Our exploration culminates with a panoramic view of the burgeoning equestrian scene in Asia, touching everything from markets striving to build their sporting culture to the significant roles played by former polo elites and royals in elevating the sport.
Navigating the competitive arena of equestrian sports photography, we confront the hurdles and triumphs that come with the digital age.
In this episode we discuss:
- The complexities of securing filming rights at official events.
- Adapting to the challenges of social media while preserving the integrity of the photography craft.
- Rights enforcement and the reality of ubiquitous smartphone cameras at events.
- And more.
🐴 This episode is brought to you by Pegasus.
Pegasus is the game-changer horse shows have been waiting for. It’s the first modern, cloud-based platform built just for equestrian events—free to use, no contracts, and ready for any discipline, anywhere.
From fast entries to real-time results, Pegasus makes shows run smoother for organizers and easier for riders to stay informed and on schedule. Check it out at www.thepegasus.app
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Right Morgan. So thanks very much for joining us today. Just for our audience, to make their life easy, do you just want to give them a quick two minute overview of who you are and what you do?
Speaker 2:Thank you very much for inviting me here. So I'm Morgan Frommens, I'm 25 years old and I'm a Akaestrian photographer, also content creator. I started to create some videos. Also, more and more Basically, I'm working in the Akaestrian world.
Speaker 2:First of all, it's a passion. I was born in a family where everyone is writing except my dad, but it's a family story here and basically everything I do today is thanks to my parents, because my mom she was creator of TV shows about horses and then coach, and my dad was filmmaker and also a cameraman and photographer. So I kind of inherited all of the passion of my family. And, of course, everyone is involved in the Akaestrian world. So for me it was super easy getting into the Akaestrian sector. I've been competing myself, in short, jumping before up to 130, 140 classes. Then I decided to focus more on my studies and I just started to create some photos when I was like 10 or 11 years old because my sister was basically the chef, the key of the dressage for police, the French team, and I had a chance at time to come with her to European championships all across Europe and I took the camera from my mom and I decided to just go there and without really thinking about what could happen in the future. And the thing is I just became that time the official photographer of the French team and I really enjoyed this so much. After that I just bought my own camera and starting to go into many, many shows as much as possible.
Speaker 2:And today is really it's real passion, like going to five star shows, and that's where I really like to go and I feel like it's where I belong, because every time I'm going to a show like this Rangin or Rolex shows or something like this, for me it's like the best you can see from the Akaestrian sport.
Speaker 2:It's my first, my first discipline, my first passion is about short jumping and then these last years I just started to discover new disciplines with like more eventing dressage, but also polo, horse racing, and when your passion with horses, I think the best thing is also to be open minded and to not being afraid of traveling a lot.
Speaker 2:So in my case, with my sister competing in five star dressage and me with my own choices and own opportunities, I really like decided to travel more and to go to like international shows outside Europe, like, for example, I went twice to Hong Kong for the Longeen Masters, then I went to Doha and after that just came back in Europe and I went to many different shows and today my job is basically to work closely with the Akaestrian stakeholders, like federations, like riders or sometimes brand. Brand is not my first client, I would say, but working with some federations, in my opinion, it's always easier to work with foreigners because of the language first and then the international way of doing things, like always try to go to international shows in different countries, being there as much as possible, trying to provide the best quality you can. So in a way, I find it's more interesting to work with foreigners.
Speaker 1:Sure, so just very quickly, as you are mainly a photographer and that is mainly what your work is, or historically, historically, yeah. So your Instagram handle is it Morgan? Underscore from it, underscore photos, is that correct? So just for the listeners, if you want to have a look at that, follow along and so you can see his work.
Speaker 3:Wait, can we start from the go back to the beginning, though? So you're in France. Where in France are you based?
Speaker 2:I'm in the south of France, between Nîmes and Montpellier, and I was born in Paris, but my mom bought this place to build a Christian center, so I was raised here and I started to ride in this place when I was young.
Speaker 3:I love the south of France. Your mom made an excellent decision. So could you mention that your mom and your dad were kind of this duo traveling and filming. What was that? Was it a TV series? What exactly were they filming?
Speaker 2:Well, my mom, in the past she created some TV shows about horses she was the presenter of the show and with what we have in the news and she was presenting about the sport, about pony stuff, about advices for beginners or this kind of stuff. She was also journalist. She went to different international shows with the mic and talking with some other writers and in different disciplines. So she's been working for Cannes, cannes, the CSI, 5 stars, 20 years ago or more 30 years ago.
Speaker 3:This is like a proper show jumping upper level ecosystem that you were born into. That's cool.
Speaker 1:Speaking to your mother about what it was like or both your parents back in the day. How has the show jumping scene in Cannes changed in the last 30 years?
Speaker 2:Well, in my opinion, about, first, I would say about communication Like definitely the I'm talking here as a photographer and a videographer that, of course, all the devices and the techniques and everything they changed a lot, like, especially the way you take the picture, your dick, the way you try to have some ideas, like innovations, and for me it's clearly like there is a really big gap between what happened in the past, like regarding the videos and the photos, and everything you have today, especially that it's not that far in the time.
Speaker 2:But what I do today and same as, like, other photographers and videographers do, same as me, it's about like taking photos and videos for social media, for marketing, for brands, like, if we talk only about reals, reals didn't exist like two years ago or three years or maybe a little bit more. It's something totally new, like in my case, speaking of time, I didn't do videos at all. I started one year and a half ago, something because I was like well, if I need to have some really good relations with my clients and try to get more and more work and opportunities, I really have to start doing videos, because otherwise this cannot work if I only stick with photos. So I would say that many things are changing with social media and the way you're working with horses. Horses they are really special animals because for me, it's an infinite way of innovating and try to find some good ideas about these animals in particular. So it's a real passion and what about from the perspective of?
Speaker 1:I mean, you've been around it your whole life, but I suppose you've probably been part of it professionally for the last five or six years three, four, five, six years?
Speaker 1:with the social media coming into it. It's a big problem here in the United States, which is there's always, especially when you have official events, so you know, events in France that are governed by the Federation there in the United States. Here is the USEF. There's always this tough relationship between photographers that want to shoot photos, the show managers who want to monetize filming of their events, the Federations that want the rights to stream and display the videos and sell the advertising space on events that they license, etc.
Speaker 1:So is that same sort of push-pull reality? Is that happening in France as well, where there's this fight over the rights and who can shoot what when?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's happening in France and I would say it's happening more and more, like being in a relation with the show organizer Federation and also with the FBI. I would say for the FBI, they want more and more control about the rights. I would say not that much about photos, but about videos. It's a really big issue because they have the coverage right and all of the classes they are FEI World Cup, for example. You have a lot of right questions, like you're not supposed to film anything except what the FEI is doing. So I have a really good example. I was working for the organizer directly, so that's one of the shows. I'm working for digital communication and in this case I am hired by the organizer and even if I'm doing their own content there is something about this show in particular, but it's also the case of the other legs of the circuit is that all of the classes they belong to the FEI World Cup.
Speaker 2:In theory, you're not supposed to work to do some videos. Like you have four classes two for show jumping, two for driving, two for the FFI jumping and two for the FFI jumping. On all of these classes you're not supposed to film anything, even if you're part of the organizer. So you have a big question about this, about who is allowed to film, who is not. I know that many photographers they just take videos during this show because they don't know about this issue or if they know, they just go as they want. But I know that there is a really difficult question about this and also the fact that some of the shows are not always respecting the rules and even if I'm not allowed to do some videos on this particular classes, some other shows are doing this anyways, so it's not super easy situation. For example, I had to make a decision about the classes I can film. For example, I was filming one 60 class on Saturday night because that one was Hermes, like a class presented by Hermes, and that one had no FEI coverage. So I was allowed to film that one, which is not the case of the other ones.
Speaker 3:Well, I'd love to talk more about this, because how do you manage these rights so the streaming rights, the video and photography rights with people that are coming there to take videos and photos of their kids or their friends that are competing and post them on social media? Like there just seems to be this battle of who owns it, but then when you go on Instagram or any social media platform, you see footage, and I also think that that's good for the sport. I think there needs to be a lot more people coming in and taking photos and videos so that people know about it.
Speaker 1:To add to that, like it's kind of, the sad reality is that, as the professionals like you, who get the most screwed right Because the FEI and the governing bodies, they get what they want out of it, they're not going to go and chase down everyone who's filming with their iPhone in the stands, but you guys, as the independent professionals who are between them, like you, get penalized because you should know Well you know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Like everyone else shouldn't know better, so they get away with it, but you're the ones that get penalized because you should know.
Speaker 3:You have the cameras.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, Whereas you know, the iPhone camera you could argue, could be just as good as the other cameras. Yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:Anyone in the tribunes that they have an iPhone or a smartphone, they can film Like there is no problem with filming with iPhone. It's also written in the guideline of the FEI regarding the rights like you can actually film as soon as you have videos from a smartphone. So if you're filming like professionally with a camera, then the rights are not respected. There is the document you can find on Google. It's about the FEI guidelines for rights and about that point they said like you can film as soon as you use your own smartphone and which means you cannot on this specific classes, you cannot use a professional camera to film like rails and something that not really respect the rights of coverage from the FEI. So this is really a tricky question.
Speaker 2:This is, I would say, only about like high level sports. If you're going to like a national show or anything that doesn't have a TV coverage, anyone can go and film. I think that the point of view from the FEI is to make sure they control the image of the sport. They cannot control everything because horses they are like a million and million, and also riders, million and million. Of course, they cannot control everyone and everything, but it's a really also tricky sport because there is an animal in there and you can like really rapidly have some animalist opinion and people going to point out what is wrong and about the welfare of the horse, and yeah, it's a really, really big, a big issue, I would say.
Speaker 4:Right. So it is quite a common discussion in the public discourse in France that the welfare of the animals. For people who don't understand it, they don't understand the sport at all. They just see that a horse is being ridden, and so it's becoming more of a public debate. Is it about whether this is a humane practice? Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3:We've noticed too and I think we briefly talked about this too, morgan, because you said that as you are looking to explore different opportunities in the industry, you're also doing some more social media type of photography and videography, and something that has been increasing is the riders who are going to social media to be able to showcase their skills and also just grow more awareness of the sport to them to attract sponsors, but a lot of that footage takes place at the event, so it's like well, is that allowed?
Speaker 2:Is that?
Speaker 3:not allowed. It becomes this really convoluted area where they're competing at that event. It's their profile. They're trying to use that to get awareness, to get sponsorship.
Speaker 1:But you're not allowed to use the footage. Yeah, Is there any official discussion about this happening, Like at the FEIs, like annual general meeting or the France France's Federations annual general meeting? Is there any official discussion about this dilemma happening, or is it all just kind of like talked about casually but no one's really doing anything about it?
Speaker 2:Well, that's a really interesting question. I would say it's not really official, like no one is talking this, like we're going to invite people for a kind of a Congress or something. It's really. It's really fun that you're actually talking about this topic, because I've been talking about this with my photographer's friend, who's doing the same as mine, and we are actually like yesterday. We've been talking about this topic a lot because we start to struggle more and more about this issue in particular. So we try to use our own network of people and try to work with a little group of photographers and try to find some solution about this.
Speaker 2:In this case, I would say, if you're going to a show with your own camera, the best option you have is working for a media or working for the organizer or working for a governing body or anything like this. If you're going there without anything like this, you can be refused by the organizer for your own accreditation and I would say it's a really big topic and this situation will probably get more and more tricky in the time because the organizer they feel like as a content creator, you go to their shows taking some content for your own clients like, for example, the brands and the writers who are performing in the show. But at the end of the show they feel like they don't benefit from the content you're creating for the writers because you go here, you get the accreditation and then what's happening? They just let you go and work with your own clients. They feel like they give an accreditation for nothing, just for you to benefit with your own clients.
Speaker 2:But the thing is, all of the content the writers are sharing from what they're buying from you, it's also a benefit for the show, because when you have a Martin Fuchs with, let's say, a hundred thousand something telling that he's showing the best images he got from his own photographer, it's always better than having someone from the tribunes and taking a selfie or something with the phone from really far away in the crowd. And I feel like all of the organizer, they can also understand that. The image from the writers it's something really, really important.
Speaker 1:This is kind of what Jen was getting at is that the ecosystem is kind of torn between the individual stakeholders and what they want. This is what's better for the sport at large and therefore better for all the stakeholders in the ecosystem. So, as you said, like for you, you turn up. You have clients right. In order for you to be there and capture those images, you need to be hired by someone to do that, and that is usually the writers or the brands, right?
Speaker 1:If it is the writers, they're trying to get high quality image that allows them to go out, put that on their channels so they can attract more sponsorship dollars that allow them to afford the lifestyle required to compete sport and make the sport the best it could be.
Speaker 1:That creates a reality in which the show managers who host the shows, they get the best athletes turning up competing at the highest level, which tracks more brands, more sponsorship, more media attention, more spectators so they benefit. And then everyone who's got an iPhone in the stands, who's taking photos and then posting those photos all over their social media, makes the public more aware of the horse show and that it's a possible thing they can do, which attracts more people into the sport both as spectators as well as getting into sport as writers, which is good for the industry. It's one of those things where, like, every individual stakeholder has to kind of just be more aware of the fact of like. You may not get an immediately tangible benefit from this, but this ecosystem works improve the popularity of the sport for everyone, which actually indirectly helps everybody.
Speaker 3:Yeah, as soon as you try to close it off, you're just hurting yourself because the event organizer I've never heard that. Actually, I'm surprised to hear that that was any concern, because to say that you wouldn't be able to go in and capture that footage. Like exactly as you said, by capturing that footage it's really high quality. The brands that have sponsored in the background they get noticed. They're clearly at a particular event. That's putting them in a really good light, which is making more people want to come to that event, whether they're a rider, a spectator, a brand. I just think it's one of those things where everybody truly wins when you have more people filming it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the most stupid but like kind of ridiculous thing is that you know for a fact that when especially large shows, when they sit down, they have a marketing team in the marketing team has a marketing budget and they like how do we spend this marketing budget? Do you get more exposure for our show? Yet at the same time, they will limit people taking photos at their own event, which is free exposure. So they're closing off the free exposure in order to sit down and spend time and money on staff and marketing advertising distribution to try and achieve the one thing they were getting for free.
Speaker 3:I love footage like that, like the kind of photos and videos that you take the really stunning and it's not like you're just taking the rider and removing the background, like you can see where they're at, and I think why long jeans has been so Successful is there in these beautiful location.
Speaker 3:So all the footage surrounding it makes people feel left out and they want to go to can. They want to go to monaco and see these events because they're exquisite. So it's not like I guess I could sympathize if you took this footage Completely, remove the background and all you saw was the horse in the jump, but you see the entire arena. You see the entire show that's actually a good point.
Speaker 1:so to gen's point mentioning long jeans have you noticed that there's been a difference by show organizers on how they think about this, whether you're working at a licensed show Versus working for a private syndicate like the long jeans championship? And a more forward thinking, because they are like a professional business that aren't attached to any sort of federal point system you mean from a long intro and the long and non long intro?
Speaker 1:Yeah, or like any private long jeans is the ultimate example right of a private questry and circuit that exists in its vacuum by itself to for the sole purpose of fort and entertainment and therefore they don't really have to worry about. Well, I've got to do it in line with compliance with the fe? I and all this sort of stuff as much, because even if they lost all affiliation with the fe?
Speaker 2:I and the french question federation tomorrow, they would still exist to be a profitable entertaining sport and business, because that's what they set up to do I think that of course, you have the sponsorship that is behind the kind of shows, especially if you're talking about long jeans, and jeans are really big sponsors because they have the long jeans global Champion store. There is a big sponsorship with the fe I for the world cup, so they have also. They have, of course, they have their rights to be priority for the only major and the sport and all the money they spend in the show. The difference is, I would say, because the sponsorship is really big, is really important part of the show and for other shows that are different, there is, I would say, it's less demanding about what the image you provide and everything like this, for example, when, when I'm traveling to asia for shows, when is there is no big sponsor like this or anything, everything is easier. But at the same time, you're not working with the same people and not working with the same riders, because when I'm going to bonkoc for the international show there there is no five star rider, not even two star riders actually. But it's a really different. It's not even bad, but it's a different way of going to a show. Everything is a little bit more relaxed and there is less Control of everything you're doing.
Speaker 2:The main thing about the long jeans or Rolex shows or anything, is that it's really demanding shows for everyone for the organizer, for the riders, for everyone involved.
Speaker 2:And, of course, when you come here as an accreditation, you have to kind of deserve it and you know that she will have an exposure and you know that probably there will be some control or something about the content you provide.
Speaker 2:And, yeah, I think that I got an idea a few days ago. It was like creating something that could gather all of the content creators like 15 or 20 content creators in different countries, like in USA, but in Europe and other places and I really think that if we can have something that can be specific for this content creators and proving to the show like if there are members of this association, they can be trusted for a show where they apply for an accreditation I think this could be a good idea for all the content creators, like me or other people. They're willing to go to a show and if the quality of the content they provide is good enough, it means they can apply for a show and have 100% sure to get accepted for this. I think this could be something useful for the audience For the content creators was struggling, same as other photographers and videographers right.
Speaker 1:So essentially, if you have a show that has restrictions on the distribution of its content, such as an fei level show or fei classes within a show, basically if you are a pre qualified equestrian content creator and you get given an exception that you can actually stream those classes because you have been deemed as going to produce a high enough quality piece of content that it's worthy of the fei support it's something that doesn't exist today, but I think this can give the recognition to some photographers who are actually struggling with this question.
Speaker 2:I think I'm talking about this with my friends. I was with them in baselona. I was with them this week in leon and other other shows in doublin and others. We've been discussing about this topic and thinking that maybe creating something like this could be helpful for the content creators. They want to have their own place in the shows out of interest.
Speaker 1:The challenge of not being able to shoot the content you want to shoot is one thing. I understand that frustration. But when you say struggling, you saying struggling from the perspective of Because you're limited in what you can shoot and cannot shoot, then it's harder to find clients that can pay the bills because they want to hire you to shoot the best shows and you're like, sorry, I can't shoot that and therefore you lose that business opportunity, which makes it life financially harder, especially considering that you have to pay to travel all over the world to do all this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, of course it's a financial question. I think we have to choose all of the shows you are, you have to get into and when it's not working, like maybe Try to find some other solutions. Some of the photographers they can pass through the owner accreditation of the forces of the writers. But yeah, indeed, like when you Truggling is mean, it means like applying for an accreditation and getting refused for this because you don't have enough of followers to be considered as an influencer or being a photographer for working with private clients, and it's not always easy thing. I think the best thing is to find your own way to work and that's why I'm also traveling to different countries to have some other perspectives, coming back here in Europe and going to different shows. I've got a chance to work with the media so I can First work with them and yeah, I think it's basically full of of privilege going to five star shows, but at the end you need to work and to make sure everything is perfect.
Speaker 2:You're not going to take bad pictures of horses or many photographers.
Speaker 2:They do like Bad fall or like a horse with the tongue out or opening the mouth or that's something I really hate to see on the social media and some photographers.
Speaker 2:They decide to do this for the best and make sure you have like a lot of reactions, lot of followers and stuff, and I feel like your responsibility as a photographer and videographer on this kind of competition is to show the best, the best images and the best of sport and the best of welfare of the horse, and that's really something really important to show to the people and also to present to the organizer that your content is something that is not going to ruin the image of their own show.
Speaker 2:They have to feel like, if I accept this photographer, I will be Sure that everything you will do will be giving a good images of the sport and a good image of my own competition. So everyone is taking pictures and stuff, but even me, when I'm taking a picture and I feel like this is not a good moment, or the horse is not moving in a good way or the mouth is open or something that one I already know I did it, the picture, and I will never use the one. Everything is like not in the welfare way, but some people they use this like if they don't know or if they know it to create the buzz.
Speaker 3:To attract the rage and then people will comment and share, and they're not doing it because, well, I mean, I guess I agree, where you are going there and you're taking footage of the horse, you do want to showcase that rider in that horse in a good light, because that's a reflection of the events. However, that said, I do think there is room for people that do act poorly at events. Those individuals should still be held accountable in some way. Or if they are doing something that is not in the best welfare for the horse and they're promoting it, and then people that don't know see that and then they think that is normal behavior, I also think that that's bad. So what would you say is a good way to balance both sides? Where, yes, the organizer should be showcased fairly?
Speaker 1:I've got an idea. This is just me thinking at the top of my head. I don't know if this is the best solution for the sport and for horses, but just low-hanging fruit To your point right about creating a license. You're essentially proposing a license for independent contractors to have the right to distribute FEI level content. That license can have with it not only must the quality of your photography be good, but there is a moral requirement. That is that if one, if you're going to get that license, then you must present the sport in a positive way, which is that you don't publish those photos. And two, if you capture footage of people behaving poorly and it's a bit Gestapo but then you can actually submit those photos to the FEI for review and they can then potentially investigate it and explore further where they want to take punish whoever was treating their horse in a poor way.
Speaker 3:I've seen some accounts lately. They're not there to shame the organizer or even shame the rider. I think they just want to draw attention to certain things that, like equipment for example, there are some really harsh bits and just some overdoing it of the equipment that if you didn't know any better you would just think is normal. But in reality if you really think about it it's kind of a form of abuse. So they've been posting things that aren't necessarily showing the event that they're at, but really zooming in into the equipment and sharing why that's not a good practice. But you also don't want that person, that rider who might be sharing that image on their accounts, to then share bad information to thinking that it's good.
Speaker 1:It's complex situation.
Speaker 3:It is a complex situation but I agree, at the end of the day the organization and be penalized and have a bad limelight on their event because of the way that certain riders are riding.
Speaker 1:The other thing to all say is that, like to your point, I've said this many times in this podcast but CrossFit is a great example of a sport that really went out of its way.
Speaker 1:Both all the competitors, which are the riders, all of the facilities managers who manage the competition, so the show organizers, the governing body, which is CrossFit corporate, their company, they all really went out of their way to enable and support individual content creators for the sport, to the point that there are YouTube channels out there now that support the CrossFit industry that are huge and are big businesses in of themselves.
Speaker 1:Because people crave that content and everyone got behind it because they realized that, like hey, rather than us having to spend a fortune on both lawyers to figure out legal contracts about who's entitled to what footage where, as well as spending money on creative teams to create that content and their money on distribution to market it and put it in places that people will see it, they just supported the individual content creators who went and made it for free, distributed for free, grew the audience for free, knowing that that just boosted the sport for everyone and therefore the key stakeholders benefited from it. So I agree with you that, like the question, industry really does need to figure out how to shift from this old mindset of a land grab and putting up legal walls about who can do what and instead be like let's just all help each other out and rising tides lift all boats.
Speaker 3:But CrossFit's different though, right, Because obviously it's very different because you don't have to worry about the welfare of a particular animal. But for us, the thought experiment if there was, say, an athlete there that had really poor behavior for whatever reason, like they were just unsportsmanlike or something, how do you think that they would be able to manage that? Because not necessarily a reflection of the event that's taking place at the event.
Speaker 1:So there was a case of that recently where the guy who won the CrossFit Games recently which is like we're in the world championships he came out after the fact that he was on a run behind another athlete and was just like quietly chirping in his ear the entire time.
Speaker 3:Chirping, like you chirp.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and just playing mind games with him to basically try and break him mentally. And it came out after the fact and people were like, oh, that's terrible sportsmanship and all this sort of stuff. But at the end of the day, what happened was the athlete came out and said yeah, I'm here to win, I'm a professional athlete, I'm here to win, that's what I have to do. And the free market just took care of it. Some content creators came out and said we don't think this is great, how dare he? Other content creators came out and was like this is awesome.
Speaker 1:It makes the sport more interesting because it's like gossip in high school, it's like something to talk about. So it's kind of like you can't control it all, but if people are talking about it, people are talking about it and that creates more attention to the sport. Again, it's different when you're talking about animal welfare and that's a different thing. But the point is, whenever you try to put a perfect system in place with strict rules, you inevitably create more problems that you can't even foresee when you create them.
Speaker 3:And he's good, good place to transition.
Speaker 1:I want to hear about Thailand and all the questions happening worldwide, so I don't know if you've listened to our podcast before or seen our content that we put on LinkedIn and stuff, but we have. We're one of the few podcasts if the only podcast really in the equestrian industry, at least in America, that spends quite a bit of time talking about Asia as a market and Asia as it's burgeoning as an equestrian scene. We've interviewed Zoe Quinn twice talking about.
Speaker 1:You know what is the Chinese horse. Is it growing, is it shrinking? Why is it growing, et cetera. You don't really have a huge amount of oversight of other Asian countries. So in your experience, do you just want to tell the audience how you've been involved with the Asian equestrian scene? And, just to start with outside of China, what other markets in Asia are really starting to grow in the equestrian space?
Speaker 2:So yeah, talking about Asia for a question, First of all it's countries. They never had the big development like we have in North America or Europe regarding horses In the history. They have strong armies and labor and they use horses in the past a lot, but they didn't take the way we have today in Europe and North America to use horses for sport, for leisure, for something like this. So I would say that Asian countries are a little bit late in the time compared to other countries, western countries, for example, in which you had a strong sport history after the military and the labor part, because it's the same story for all of the countries. Like horses, everything like the sport, started from army. And then Asian countries. They quite late compared to other Western countries today, but they try to invest more and to get more and more involved in the sport. Today. I think the main thing going to Asian countries for working in the equestrian sector is basically to get more opportunity, because not so many people are willing to go to these countries because they don't know the countries or they feel like, oh, it's too far away or something. But there is just a small amount of people they are willing to go there and to try to get a bit of adventure and find some new opportunities going there because, in my opinion, you have more challenge to go there compared like staying in Europe or North America, where everything is really well developed for the horse sector. Like you have plenty of facilities, you have plenty of competitions, you have all of the brands, all of the riders and the horse industry is really good, is really well developed in our Western countries, compared to Asia or Africa or faraway countries from us. And I think it's really a passionate thing to travel and to meet some people to discover new ways of working with horses.
Speaker 2:In my case, I traveled first to Hong Kong because my sister was performing there during the Longin Masters, and I went there twice because I came first time was in 2014 and I came back in 2019 because I was working for the press that time as a photographer and spending the time in Hong Kong. That was in an indoor show and it was a really interesting competition. I think Zoe told you about this, but they had a congress called Asia Ours Week and gathering some professionals from Europe and the professionals from Asia, talking all together about some issues and about some challenges, about everything that can help to build up the horse sector in all Asia, but unfortunately the show disappeared today, so 2019 was the last edition of that one. Yeah, so talking about all of this topic that they also talked during that congress is that there are many, many people. They are willing to get into the sport and have the passion for horses.
Speaker 2:They don't really have breeding systems like we have in Europe and North America, so they want to compete or anything. They have to import the horses a lot. So there is a trade, there is business for horse sales to travel to Asia, to Asian countries. I had a chance to travel into China during like one month with my backpack and I went to different clubs and, of course, everything has needs to have some improvements, but they are in a good way and they are really willing to improve.
Speaker 1:Can you just go into that a bit more detail about the different clubs you saw in China? So from our conversation with Zoe she was saying that essentially a lot of the equestrian clubs in China one the majority of people who have horses there. They don't own the horse, they just rent the horse from the club and she said some clubs had as many as 1,000 members who were renting the horses and paying a monthly dues. Is that kind of what you saw in your experience there?
Speaker 2:And what are the clubs like? I saw some clubs around Beijing. I was there and I was a bit surprised about the facilities were quite abandoned. Some of the parts of the stable, they were kind of destroyed, and not so many people going there. When they have a chance to work with the foreigner, with the European coach, they are already really happy. It also means that it's not happening so many times for them, so they have to deal with their own situation there.
Speaker 1:So I just repeat that. You said that there are some European coaches there, but they aren't really getting a huge amount of work. Is that what you were saying?
Speaker 2:I mean there is not so many people are willing to go there because, as I said, it's a lot of challenges and some people they go there Sometimes they just go once and they come back because they feel like the way of living is not so easy.
Speaker 2:The culture and many things are not super easy to deal with. In my experience, when I travel to Thailand, I actually really love this country and everything makes it so much easy because I like the people, I like the way they want to improve everything about horses and, speaking of this, you have a really big difference in different countries, like China, it's so big and so many people here and, of course, you have plenty of clubs. Of course I didn't travel to every of them, but it's more industry, like it needs to have clubs and with money, some benefit and stuff and you have in Thailand, for example, to compare, it's more about ownership. Like the kids they're riding the ponies, like it's normal that they own the pony, that they bought the pony from Europe and the parents are the owner of the horse, of the pony. So it's totally different approach. Like I sold my own pony, a Konemara pony, last year and the pony now belongs to a family, a family there that I have a chance to coach when I'm going.
Speaker 1:Since they own in Thailand, they're more inclined to own their horses. Does that mean that the average person who participates in equestrian sports in Thailand is quite wealthy or at?
Speaker 2:least up a bit of the class. It's really wealthy because not so many people are going in there.
Speaker 1:So how large is the equestrian scene in Thailand? Is it only a very, very small amount of people who are in it, and they're very wealthy. Is it growing, or is it starting to become more common amongst the middle class, like it is in China?
Speaker 2:I think it's more about wealthier. They have some strategies to make it more and more popular for middle class, but the first people they hear they quite a healthy year.
Speaker 3:So how are the Thai riders getting their instruction? Are there a lot of European riders that have gone to Thailand to teach?
Speaker 2:Well, there is some of the European coach. They're based here, like, for example, there is a Swedish lady who's based at this place and she's own her own club and she has their own rider and everything Otherwise. If there is some trainers that are Thai, they were trained by European coach also in the past. The main pattern is that the coach or the high level riders from Thailand. They all travel to Europe to get the qualifier for the biggest competition, like, for example, some Thai riders. They qualified for Olympic Games, like last Olympic Games in Tokyo, they qualified the whole team and before in the past, one Thai rider qualified for short jumping, and before in London in 2012, one Thai rider qualified for eventing. So, at the end, all of the riders they want to perform and to reach the high level competition the kind of mandatory thing they have to travel to Europe with their own money or if they can get the sponsorship from the Federation and get some financial aid. So, yeah, that's the main pattern if they want to reach high level.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, Okay, so that's Thailand. Have you had any exposure to any other Asian countries and what their equestrian scene is like?
Speaker 2:Well, every time I travel to Asia, it was Thailand, hong Kong, china. But I've heard about what's happening in the neighbors countries, neighbors to Thailand. The thing is it's a real question of strategy, development and financial, because when you have Thailand, the pattern of Thailand is really special. Because they have a chance to reach people. They look after the development of all of the equestrian parts in the country. They are former polo players. One is from Europe, from Switzerland I guess, and the other one is a lady in Thailand and a real businessman and businesswoman, and they want to invest and to get all of them to make sure the equestrian sector is going to increase. These are the people who basically help the riders to travel to Europe and they are here to invest from the money of their own companies or the money from the government, or the princess is also helping, because the princess of Thailand is a dressage rider, she pitted in the last Asian Games, was in Angso in China, and all of these people, they are really willing to help the horse industry in their own countries.
Speaker 2:But for other countries, if you say, like, take Vietnam or Cambodia or Myanmar, you don't have the same people, the same financial and the same strategy.
Speaker 2:Some other countries they don't even have the like, the organizer, the organization as a federation, as an equestrian federation, so they have to manage as good as they want, as good as they can.
Speaker 2:But yeah, it's really a question about financial and about what they can do to increase their own horse sector. There is another example of Thailand and Cambodia. Because they are neighbor countries, thailand is helping Cambodia to develop like, for example, they help for organizing competitions, they send with the truck the fences from Thailand to the horse shows in Cambodia. So there is, like I would say, a strategy to develop everything. And plus, the guy who is actually the president of the Thailand Federation is also the president of the Southeast Asian a question federation is trying to like as much as possible and I think they are in a really good way to develop everything there. And that's the thing that there is a lot of opportunities, of challenges and even if, when I'm talking as a photographer, when I'm there, I don't have as much competition as I have in Europe with other photographers that are doing the same thing as me, when I'm traveling there, I'm nearly alone doing what I'm doing.
Speaker 1:So have you had any experience with how any Western brands are looking at Asia as a market to sponsor and vendor? At a question competition.
Speaker 2:Well, there is actually some tech shops in Thailand. They are giving some sponsorship with some shows, but about equipment for example, they all import from Europe for the other brands and stuff and it's a really big cost between importing, between the tax and the selling price of the product. So to go there, the tech shop, they are buying stuff like quite expensive and though they have to also set it quite expensive compared to the prices we have in Europe. About sponsorships, it's also a bit difficult question because it's really far competition from Europe. So they're not really sure to have good results about their marketing, about their communication and make sure they have enough feedback about their competition. So I would say that brands they're not really investing in the shows, like when it's really far away. You talked earlier about Australia. That's a travel I really want to do. The thing is I'm trying to be open to more and more travels and countries and try to discover new places. So I'm always happy to travel to countries I don't know and try to discover the worst sector in different countries.
Speaker 1:As a independent content creator in the equestrian industry. How is the average creator supporting themselves financially? Is there enough business? Do you have to spend a lot of your time constantly reaching out to brands or reaching out to writers and trying to sell them on your services? Or do you find that they reach out to you Because, at the end of the day, horse show travel is bloody expensive and you're not exactly flying to cheap cities. You've got to get accommodation in expensive cities if you want to cover the best shows, let alone the travel costs. So how does the average photographer or videographer, how are they supporting themselves?
Speaker 2:Well, of course you need to work a lot and it takes a lot of time and a lot of money to go to these kind of shows. In my case, I try to reduce the cost as much as possible and then it's up to the creators. I don't know about how there are other ones working, but I know that, as you said, some cities are super expensive and sometimes you have to make some decisions like going only on Sunday on the show instead of going to all of the week. So, yeah, about financial, it's always a big question and I think what I can say about this is try to reduce the cost but at the same time, give your best to provide the good content. And I know that in my experience, I'm not sleeping that much because I'm working until like two or three o'clock or even more sometimes in the night. So I'm thinking that the time I'm working on a show, I have to make sure it's really worth it. Use the time wisely.
Speaker 1:We spoke to you briefly with prior to this podcast.
Speaker 1:I believe you were saying that you were interested in creating more diverse content rather than just shooting horse shows etc.
Speaker 1:Especially if you were going into Asia etc. So something that we talk about a lot is and I'm someone who's relatively new to the equestrian industry and it kind of blows my mind that if you go on YouTube, there is not a lot more really high quality, interesting equestrian content out there. Some of the most successful vloggers on YouTube have really basic stuff like it's not exactly breaking any records. So if someone gave you half a million dollars a year and a camera and said, hey, go, shoot whatever you want, we'll cover all your costs and travel and stuff Like, what sort of content would you love to create so, for example. So one of the things that we talk about a lot and something that we're really interested in doing is hiring someone to travel the world and do some of the best equestrian adventure tourism trips in the world and then logging that and then having a channel that everyone who's obsessed with horses can dream of and be like I'd love to go do that trip.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like best kinds of riding holidays combined with really great shows, things like that All the things that put a really great highlight on the equestrian industry and get more people to get involved and want to be part of it.
Speaker 1:So if you could, if you could like, snap your fingers and go film whatever you wanted with an unlimited budget. Is there anything in particular you've thought of that you would really love to film?
Speaker 2:I guess horses in general in some places like once again quite far away like Mongolia or something where people are not usually going, and horses in the wildlife. I'm not really specialized of wildlife animals but yeah, definitely, if it's outside of the sport, I would say definitely going to wildlife footage and that would be something really special for me. I guess, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, thank you very much for joining us today. That was awesome. The conversation about video rights and streaming rights and stuff. It's something that we love to talk about, so that was fascinating hearing that it's kind of the same problem in France as well as it is here.
Speaker 3:And just learning about all the opportunities that exist elsewhere. I mean for us. We really get excited about that because it's just something where I mean I was born in Florida, so just all around me were horse farms, whatnot, and then we were in Middleburg, virginia, which is also a lot of horse farms just in the United States. In general, being an equestrian, you kind of know where to go. And, of course, europe we all love our European imports, but there's just so much happening elsewhere. So learning about what's happening in China, in Thailand and Mongolia I mean there's Cambodia there's just a lot of things that people can start to think about. So appreciate it. And for people that do want to learn more and connect with you, where can they go to do so?
Speaker 2:I don't have a website anymore, but I have my Instagram page, as you mentioned before.
Speaker 1:That is for the listeners. That is Morgan underscore from it underscore photos.
Speaker 2:Yes, sure, I have this, and I have the same with Facebook page, and I also have my LinkedIn account with just my name, morgan from. And yeah, that's it.
Speaker 1:And they can just DM you there and ask you to shoot them some photos.
Speaker 2:I'm also planning to go to the web in Florida beginning of next year, so hopefully maybe I can meet you there if you're also going to the show.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we'll likely be there.
Speaker 2:When will you be there February?
Speaker 3:probably Okay, cool Fantastic.
Speaker 1:Well, we'll see you in February and until then, good luck with everything.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. Thank you very much for your time.
