Pegasus Podcast
@thepegasusapp https://www.thepegasus.app/🐴 Conversations with the movers and shakers of the global equestrian industry. Hosted by Pegasus founders Sam Baynes and Jen Tankel.
Pegasus Podcast
How Equestrian Can Be Better for the Environment
Megan Fellows, the founder and head of Carbon Hoofprint.
Carbon Hoofprint is arguably the only sustainably consultancy in the horse world making waves, so you’re going to want to listen to this.
Be sure to listen to this episode and if you want to keep up with Megan, send her an email at megan@carbonhoofprint.com and check out their site at carbonhoofprint.com.
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I think my biggest threat that I see are just the rise of natural disasters whether it's wildfires in California that you see and that affects barns, horseshoes, whether it's from smoke or actually having to save your horses from them, tornadoes, hurricanes all of these just really intense events I can see as being something that we need to just work on climate change as a whole, because that will disrupt the sport.
Noah:Hi everyone, my name is Noah Levy and I'm the producer of the Pegasus Podcast, hosted by our founders, sam Baines and Jen Tankle. On today's show, we are hosting Megan Fellows, the founder and head of Carbon Hoof Print, one of the only sustainability consulting firms in the horse world. You're going to learn about how Megan is helping some of your favorite horse shows, such as Wellington, reduce Their. Well, carbon Hoof Print. We'd like to apologize in advance for some unresolvable audio issues. Keep your ears out and your heels down. All right, let's get into it.
Sam:To jump into it, Megan. Just to make it easy for the listeners, you can just give us a quick few minutes summary over who you are and what Carbon Hoof Print does, and just to set the tone.
Megan:Yes, so I'm so glad to be on. My name is Megan Fellows. I grew up riding horses very competitively, doing the hunter jumpers, starting when I was like eight years old. Then I transitioned to the jumpers think about high school age and then went to school, got out of riding for a while, very into sustainability and kept coming back to the horse world and seeing where we were lacking in just environmental impact. I started this company, carbon Hoof Print, about September of last year. We are now working with barns, businesses and their question venues to get an understanding of where they are right now and then bring solutions to them to reduce their environmental impact in energy, water, waste, plastics, just the whole gamut. That's where we are right now. Sure, the big group that I'm working with is the Winter Requestry and Festival in Wellington, florida. They're the big case study to see all the different avenues where these solutions can be brought in.
Sam:If I'm going to summarize just what exactly I think it is exactly what you do and tell me if I'm correct. Essentially, Carbon Hoof Print at the moment is you are a consulting firm, slash. You also provide some logistical support to implement some of the recommendations you make, but you basically work with equestrian facilities and equestrian shows and operations to help them figure out how they can make their site more green and more sustainable.
Megan:Essentially, Perfect, you nailed it Yeah.
Sam:Does it surprise you that, considering that the equestrian industry is very much an outdoor sport and the fact that the equestrian industry is buying a lot of them do put a lot of effort into a lot of them, into land conservation, because they want to protect riding lands and pastures, et cetera? Have you found it surprising, as you've gone and started this business, that that sort of mentality hasn't translated to how do we make these facilities green, considering that we are trying to preserve the land that we physically need to participate in the sport we all love?
Megan:Definitely it has. I think it is such an outdoor sport. Our favorite memories are probably even more because I think of just riding out in the field with my friends when I was a kid and there is that connection to nature which we want our own kids to have and their kids, and we think about the environmental connection. And then at the horse shows we just don't really see it there as much. We're still outside, we're still working with the horses. I think there's more infrastructure around you and you might use that sense of connection to nature a bit, but you still always have the horses there.
Megan:I think the surprising part to me has been where it's getting lost in translation between the people that are riders and owners and then the facilities themselves of trying to make that something. That's important too. I think what I've seen is that those facilities whether it's a large venue they're so focused on actually executing the event and there's so many things that they have to think about to actually functionally make it work and go smoothly that it becomes secondary. That's just from the people that are putting on the show. Where I see it, and it has been a huge surprise that people that I know care about the environment outside of the horse world haven't really been pushing for it, when they're at the shows as well. Whether it's plastics or recycling, there's the energy and water. I think we just don't think about it. It's a given pair of bills and see what happened, but then don't think about the ways to improve it.
Jen:In your experience, have you found one type of venue or a particular venue that is really setting the stage of sustainability at a question event that other events that are looking at doing this can look up to? Sounds like WEF will soon be that, but are there any other events that exist right now that are currently doing that?
Megan:Not that I've seen on a holistic level. There are some amazing ones that have been doing great. There's one in Helsinki that's using the manure to power the show with energy. They're sharing their energy with local communities, so they're really good in that area. A Washington International War show has been looking to get rid of plastics. Same with a few other shows. I think shows are doing really well within different verticals but none are looking at it across the board of energy, water, waste and actually having a dedicated program to improve which I think they're thinking of it, but it's step by step and kind of a slow process to get there. Hey, megan.
Noah:Statistically speaking, what is the largest contributor to waste at horse shows overall? Is it water usage? Is it plastics? Is it energy usage? What is it?
Megan:I'd say that you just hit on the main three because they are in different areas, but the ones we've been seeing. Energy is a huge one. A 30-stall barn uses three times the amount of energy as a regular house, essentially because you have the lights. If you have an inforing of your pack rooms, you have all these different things. They're contributing, so that's a major factor.
Megan:Maneuver is a huge one too, depending on where the manure is going to. A lot of it just gets dumped at landvilles and that's a huge amount of just weight that goes there. And these for something better, i think, is just the opportunity loss is huge on that side. And then the big piece that we don't think about is the amount of waste when it comes to trash. And E-Thorus comes with its own set of shampoo bottles, plastic shavings, bags, the people that come with it, what they're bringing and just all the catering and food and beverage. It's something we don't think about because we use our own individual pieces. But the pure waste is a huge one as well. That's nothing that's being done with it.
Noah:So at these stables, for example, at these horse shows, they're all in different locales, they all have different sources of energy, right? Or is there one source of energy that is, in particular, the most used one across the United States?
Megan:I think it is pretty specific to your state and county. Most have state utility. In Florida, it's Florida power and lights. You're just pulling power from the grid And what I've seen, according to a few different venues, is no one's really an expert within the organization to even look at their power bills on a month-to-month basis. They pay the bill but they're not. They don't have the expertise actually going and see how much they're using it. Is that more than they should be? And I think some of the biggest drivers, especially for a show that's going on, are. What I've seen is your stadium lights, your flood lighting around the show grounds. If you have catering, there's your kitchen And then all of the barns added together is a big factor as well, but it's always pulled from the grid And, depending on what that grid uses, it depends on your location.
Sam:You mentioned that you're working with Wellington. That is the premium equestrian property and operation in America, if not the world. So they are probably running it and making a profit large enough that they can afford those energy bills. The average horse show in America, especially the average horse show outside at Flunter Junker, is making a few thousand dollars profit, if not losing money, and they're basically looking for every single avenue they can find to save some money in order to be able to run the horse show again.
Megan:So if you've spoken to many of the small operations outside of Flunter Junker and seen whether they are astute enough to be studying that electricity input and how they can make it more cost efficient, I have, and I will take a step back and share how they break down in my mind, because I have been trying to take this dive view that you have venues that own and operate their own facility, like a Winter Equestrian Festival, something that is theirs And then you have something like a Kentucky Borscht Park that they own the facility but also then groups will come in and essentially lease the facility for two weeks to run their own show, whether it's a driving competition or a venting, because then you have the facilities that are leasing that space. I'm trying to figure out how those people that are leasing it pay for their energy for that lease, because they just come in and pay the bills to the owner of the facility. So that's like the second worry. And then there's the third group that are top-up shops and they're just in here with the energy when they come in, but they don't necessarily own a facility. For Bill Horsha and Virginia, as an example, where they're only there for a week. There are a lot more of those that come in. It doesn't really make sense for them to look into the bills because they don't only the facility, they're just paying for it when they come.
Megan:But in terms of solutions.
Megan:I think it's working with those facilities to say how do we make it better for you as the owner of this facility and how do we make it better for you as the owner of the facility that can make their lease feed to the person that is just renting it for those two weeks better by looking at the bills and then sharing that benefit?
Megan:For some there are options that are like you think solar trailers that are great and they come in and maybe use renewable energy at a better rate than just pulling from the grid for that week. The answer to the question and circle back to it is, from what I've seen, that even the smaller shows don't really have someone that understands the nitty-gritty to go in and see where their biggest draws are. But it's so unique from place to place that I think that's where I'm still trying to learn and understand so that I can go in and my goal is to make a bigger impact for the equestrian industry overall. If that's with bigger horseshoes, then that's one avenue, but if it's helping all of these smaller horseshoes scale by using something like a solar battery pack that can go from show to show and help their bills, that's an opportunity as well.
Sam:I imagine, too, that you've also got this issue, which is that not only are you looking at what is a practical solution to make a show more energy efficient, you're also going to be depending on who you're consulting to at the time, you're going to also be a thick of the politics or the business of. If I'm a facility and I'm renting my grounds to you to run your horse show and I know the energy bill is $5,000 for the cost of a weekend, i'm going to mark up a $6,000 because it's another way for me to get money out of this facility. If you've found, as you've been doing, these consulting jobs, there is the practical reality of what is required to make a facility more green, and then there is the business reality of making a facility more green And not only like it's very on the surface level. You would think, oh, this is obvious and help people save money. But when people make money out of renting out of their facility, maybe they don't want to save money because that's their margin.
Megan:Yes, and I think the trick that they can find in the future is start to save money on their end but charge the same fee. So if the facility is able to front the upfront cost of the upgrade say solar on their barns, for example a way that they can do it is be lowering their energy bills, but then the end customer doesn't even know that there's a change. I like to be optimistic and say it's cheaper for everyone, but it's the same thing with manure the hauler. You're bringing it to a digester that then they're now being paid to bring their manure to this plant. They might not even need to communicate that the person that is offloading their manure. They can just keep charging the same prices.
Megan:And I'm trying to figure out where I sit in that, because I think I would lower the prices for everyone. But, understanding that people still want to run their businesses and make their margins, is there a way to lower the prices for everyone but then market themselves as a better facility or operator? because they're thinking about these things and there's the positive branding to it. And this is a benefit to you as the user or renter, these things that we're not just trying to pinch every penny, but not share those numbers?
Sam:Everyone's got a question just for your job engine. Just to put the cap on that, your mission as an organization at Carbon Hook Print is to increase the environmental friendliness of equestrian operations. So it's not your job to get involved in the business If the net outcome of them adopting these green systems but it's continuing to increase their profits by continuing to charge the same costs, that's not for your place to be involved. So today the net outcome is like the operations greener, and then that's for the business professionals to squabble amongst themselves out.
Megan:Okay, that's kind of where I'm sitting right now, because I think I'd love to be involved in all of that and help support it all the way through. I think that will come as I rule my business and have more people to get involved, especially if it helps make the business case for them to purchase that upgrade.
Megan:Sure So it's welcome for me to be involved down the line and actually manage that, versus just handing it off and saying think about this, it may work for you, it may not. It's like working through how do we make this work for you Because it is good to be in the environment and it'll be good for you, and create kind of a framework to help them through that process.
Jen:Is there, so develop on that. So is there currently any resources that you're providing with these organizations that don't necessarily have the connecting pieces after they're interested. So they want to, they actually want to go through and implement these sustainable options and then are you helping to take those events and those organizers and then connect them with the people that can actually execute on these initiatives that they're trying to implement at their show?
Megan:Yes, and it's a Wellington, and Raffinal is a good example of that. We're physically, we've been project managing to make sure they go through. I think as we get more projects on the books, it is that transition between needing a consultant and a project manager. So we are trying to make sure that these things are happening. My interns and I are picking up sponsorship signage and bringing them to a nonprofit that reuses them for local school and artists and their art projects. So we are physically helping to execute these right now, same with the big solar projects.
Megan:I'm at every site visit. That's going and scouting of the project and just making sure we understand the whole operation. It's something that is worth maybe discussing a bit, that I'm trying to figure out. I can make as much impact by working with these individual companies down the line so intensely, or would I be better to give them the best way to execute it themselves And I can work with more shows. But I think it's a matter of me figuring that out and building my team so that we can help them execute as much as possible.
Jen:It's like the blueprint to the project management, or maybe there could be a hybrid of both down the line. But out of curiosity, what is? do you know the typical number, that typical energy costs per horse that you've seen? So what people are currently paying right now without implementing these sustainable options?
Megan:no-transcript. It is funny that you asked because we are building that baseline as of this week And essentially doing an audit of a few barns down here with 10 coming in right now.
Megan:Try to say, okay, this is how much energy you're there using monthly or annually, how many stalls is that barn, what discipline are they in, and create kind of a per horse baseline to have those numbers. So I don't have them right now but I'm aiming to, by the end of this week And I think Corbin Hook, brian, where I'd love to get to, is kind of calculator to say I have this number of horses, I travel to this many more shows a year, input a few things and say wow, that's my footprint, and then give the channels and ways to actually improve it, whether it's at your barn or how they travel to the shows, where you're staying at the shows, all the supplies you're using. But we are just collecting those who just aggregate numbers to get an estimate, because nothing exists right now that I've found that has a good number that's all brought together other than individual barns.
Jen:It'll be interesting also to see how that breaks down per discipline and maybe per state.
Megan:Yes, yes, yeah, we're looking at that right now on an industry level. We are in these silos of the different disciplines because you have show jumping up that I know really well. but also we're starting to look at polo barns and seeing how are they different? Some of them are 200 horses big at a polo barn versus a 30 stall barn. that's a hunter jumper. and the inputs that go into the facility, whether you're up north and you have an indoor ring, that's a whole different story And if it has heating or cooling. so those are the numbers that we're looking to just get more information from and begin to see where the biggest culprits are of the energy water waste are, because then we can tackle that as we go.
Sam:You mentioned coming back, this idea is creating this calculator and then, as well as with the you at carbon footprint, are you going to be basically the project management company yourself, or are you going to basically become an education qualification organization that trains people to be able to do this themselves? The other component of that which makes it difficult and this covers back to dealing with what you were saying about the fact that, like manure is currently put in landfill, et cetera, you could train people to basically advise on it, but then you're going to actually do it. Now, from our experience, the majority of people would actually be executing on this other local contractors who supply horse shows And I know you mentioned to us in a previous conversation that the majority of the suppliers that supply horse shows don't specialize in supplying horse shows. It's like something else they do when their main business is doing that for the wider in the wider world.
Sam:What are some of the barriers for implementing these great technologies? when it comes into account of, you've got to deal with the local suppliers around each horse show, and they themselves are difficult personalities who may or may not want to do it, either because they don't care or because they pick up the manure and they give it to their friend and they have a good deal and they share the costs, et cetera. So what have you learned from the perspective of those logistical challenges of implementing these sort of policies?
Megan:I think it becomes very localized, for trying to find a blanket solution that works for shows in different states is very difficult. I'd love to say connect with this waste management person and they'll help you out because we've created a partnership with them. It is a challenge because we're going to have to go and create unique partnerships from each local show to their local water department or waste and recycling department and they all have their own unique P2N. For example, in Florida they're only dual string when it comes to recycling, So you can have recycling and you can have waste. They don't have really a compost portion of that we can be looking at from the traditional waste management, but in another state they might have that. So there's not like a one size fits all. That's going to be a challenge and say, hey, this works for this horse show, It'll work for this one as well.
Megan:I think there will be a framework to say reach out to you know, help connect. And then work through the partnerships with the local contractors, whether it's the waste management system or the local utility. So it's going to be a piece by piece process that's local to the facility that we're working with. And then, yeah, I think from a personality standpoint, especially with the manure side. If it is a money making opportunity, they might look to do it themselves. Or they might try to hear what you're doing and realize, oh, what I have is valuable, The manure that you're telling me that you can sell by creating gas or creating compost or fertilizer. Maybe I can do that myself.
Megan:So I have realized that one of the challenges is also that, as much as we'd like to implement these things right away and say let's start doing better with the recycling or the manure, there is a little bit of back and forth from the individual personality is that I want to see what they can do, because they're building their own businesses as well. I'm being brought back in a bit because I'd love to just save the world and let's do all these things and we should implement solutions. But there are two sides of the picture that there's a facility and then there's the contractors, and both want to be profitable, both want to grow their businesses. They see the opportunities and then have to negotiate from there.
Sam:Yeah, absolutely. It's Tao's oldest time, which is that it's up to the argument whether you should do something as a not-for-profit or whether you should do something as a business, which is that not-for-profit is going to have all the best intent in the world, but you've really got to align financial incentives of the different stakeholders in order to make it work, because you need people to have a reason to do it That gives them longevity. It's interesting. I don't find your point about the fact that a lot of these contractors, whilst they see the opportunity, might do it themselves or they might specialize As an Australian who's come to America in the last 10 years, and, of course, they're shocked by how capitalistic America is.
Sam:I'm going to press by it, but I thought Australia was a capitalist country. We are nothing compared to America. Everywhere there is an opportunity for a middleman or a specialist to exist. In this country, there is a middleman or a specialist and they're killing it. The idea that there haven't been a bunch of businesses that have popped up simply to serve horseshoes and specialize in this arena is incredible. I think it's a major opportunity.
Sam:I'm going to put you this, but come back to the manure thing. One of those specialists who pop up, as you said, could be the bonds themselves as a second source of income. I'm going to put you this example. but the Ford Motor Company they invented and still, to this day, I think, running one of the largest charcoal manufacturing companies in the world.
Sam:It was all started because back in the day, when they were basically using, they were basically burning these fires to basically help bend their steel and stuff, they were producing all this charcoal and they were just throwing it out. One day someone at Ford was like why don't we actually just turn this into a product and sell it? and now it's become a multi-billion dollar company for decades just by basically taking that output, repackaging it, repurposing it, selling it to a different market For the equestrian industry. especially if you run a horse show or a facility at scale enough that you're producing manure at that scale, being able to then turn that into a resource that you then sell as fertilizer or whatever you want to call it makes total sense. It's a great opportunity.
Megan:It is, and it's a matter of scale, though, too. to make something like that profitable, you need a pretty large input. I guess it depends on what kind of operation you're trying to build. Compose and fertilizer is much easier than, say, digester, which takes a lot of money to build the facility and just everything that goes into. it is not something that maybe one individual show could do, maybe the scale of the equestrian vessel, just because of how many they have, but it does take a network of manure to create something. that actually takes a lot of capital to start. But if you have someone that can build that facility and then people can be bringing their waste to it, there is a way for everyone to work together and be profitable Just getting those people to work together correctly.
Sam:What exactly is that end product? business opportunity of Manoa.
Megan:There are a few. I think I mentioned some. I've been diving into it myself. I did not really like the idea of an issue that was before looking into it for the Wellington area. Someone approached me that he's been trying to get into the manure side of the horse world, that he works with large hogging dairy farms out west and they do this all the time there. But those are big facilities that are thousands of cows and they can build one on their own property and it makes sense for them that everything can just be pushed into it.
Megan:So there's an aerobic digestion which takes the biomaterials and puts it into a big bubble, heats up water, whips the poop, mixes it together and creates gases And that can be turned into renewable energy. It can be turned into hydrogen. There are a lot of different outputs that can come from that process. It's been interesting to me to see that it depends on the markets month to month. Hydrogen was top of the line, most valuable three months ago. It might change as of today And I think that state to state. Also.
Megan:That involved gas pipelines. Where can it be built? that's near a pipeline that can be sharing it either to the national grid just as an aside That's something that's insane to me that California might be the most in need of a certain type of renewable gas, but if you put it into the pipeline in Florida it counts as getting there. It joins this national system. There's the whole anaerobic digesters side, but then on a more easy side of just not having to build such a big facility, you can do compost or fertilizer, which makes it more friendly to break down the manure and be spread. Horse shavings and bedding is a bit difficult because of the wood chips, the wood shavings that are there and don't break down as easily to just spread on your fields. So there is a process there that needs to be put in place to make it something that's really really usable for compost or fertilizer.
Jen:C compost has a pretty significant amount of forces that are coming into the property in a lot of ways that they're being generated, but being able to also incorporate all the nearby barns and even the local barns, where they too have this issue of bedding and manure. I remember growing up and being at these boarding barns where you'd have the one section of the pasture that you just avoid because that's where everything gets dumped And normally nowhere it goes to. It just seems to get bigger and bigger. So those are a way in which we can incorporate some of these other barns and the supporting network that supports the show, so that everyone can have the place to then bring it to and then therefore be able to repurpose it from that facility.
Megan:And that's what we're working towards. That's what I'm working towards right now is I'm not necessarily I don't care who owns it, i just want to find a good solution for this area because as of right now, it's maybe not being done above board with how it's being spread. I think I mentioned to you all before, but before the manure used to be able to be spread on the sugar cane fields and just manure loosely, but then their environment impacts. That came from that, the Everglades Foundation coming in and saying, hey, this is running off into our water streets And that's just not something that had been an issue before. So now they're running into this problem where they don't know where to put it or their pain is phenomenal amounts to bring it to the local dump.
Megan:I think there either can be a few different ways to go about where there's one large facility that can be built for this whole network to bring it to and that might be easiest for everyone. But as there are different haulers that try to develop their own solutions, there could be a few different end goals. It could be a compost facility and a fertilizer facility. There could be four of them in the area, but the challenge is with that if that's where people are heading towards, then it doesn't really make sense for one big plant to be built, because they won't have the input in a concentrated way. I think you're nailing it that it needs to be the network that's supporting it. It's a good topic to think about of how do we get the barns themselves to support this end goal. That's better for the environment if it's actually built, versus people squabbling about who's going to build it, who's going to profit from it, because then nothing gets done if everyone's trying to keep their chips in their corner, and that's what's frustrating.
Sam:I don't know enough about it, but the model kind of already exists with just hay. I don't know how the infrastructure works with hay, but farmers will basically grow in their fields along and they'll go crops in it, they'll cut down all the grass, they'll wound it up into the hay bales, they'll put it in a shed and then one time a year basically someone comes along, pays them for their hay, puts it on the trucks and takes it away and they go repurpose it and resell it, and they do that from farm to farm. So imagine, if you look into how does the hay market work, who are the suppliers who are doing that collection, payment and then repurpose and selling. You probably find them all of the works and then just basically speak to the salesman and like how do you sign up a new farm? What's the deal you offer?
Megan:them.
Sam:Yeah.
Megan:Exactly Share. I think it'd be really awesome to share that green side of it too, that if that's marketable for a barn to share with their clients also. It's like we're a green barn in this sense with what we do with these different aspects of it. And those haulers are hay distributors like distributors, distributors like you're saying. They have all of those contacts and I think there is a way to get everyone together and sign up for a similar solution would be amazing.
Megan:And I think on the manure side too I can't remember if I mentioned this when we had chatted previously, but I like to think of it as these big digesters or solutions for the manure. They're huge right now. They take up a big footprint for you to have it on your farm. So you either need like a large scale operation to be able to turn it into something useful, kind of like the first map of computer. Your computers were huge and they started to specialize in smaller and smaller, that you can go from a supercomputer to something that could be affordable walking around with you as a laptop and I can see it moving towards that in the future for kind of a manure solution. How does each individual barn have something that helps them turn their manure into a fertilizer that they can use or into energy that their barn can use right on the spot.
Noah:It's really interesting because the three of us have come from the tech industry even before our involvement in the equestrian industry. Despite our collective involvement in the equestrian industry, for being multiple decades, how fast do you find change happening in the industry that you're in versus, let's say, the general tech scene in Silicon? Because it sounds like there's a lot of technological advancements and a lot of people needing to work on these things in order for what we're talking about to happen. Right, i'm just wondering how fast is the space and do you think that the space is moving fast enough? Do you think that there are enough people working on this?
Megan:It's not moving fast enough and it could be moving more quickly for sure. I think part of the challenge is no one's really asking for it, so a lot of these different service providers don't have the incentive to move more quickly or to deliver on that. And I think it is at a niche market of the horses and there are so many different types of feed and hay that you could use. But I have not seen anything within the past year or two years push a lot of those service providers to innovate from a sustainability standpoint. I think there's some early talk of it, but there could be a seed company that wants to be more sustainable with their packaging or how they're shipping it from across the ocean and over here. They're just not really thinking about that and I'd say I think it can move quickly if they have the money to put behind it and they want to be that first brand over to come into the space and say we're the first sustainable feed company or something that can really benefit off of being that first mover. In other words, they just don't see a huge push on the innovation standpoint and I don't know if that's because people don't have a technical background as much, but where I do see it moving quickly is like there are a few I can think of. I can talk about one where they are scientists and they're horse people and they come in and say we want to create a solution. There is one called high point bedding, which I just recently learned about, and they're thinking about it in an amazing way that they can take the manure. They're working on a digester that can use the manure for something else, but then they can take the shavings out of it and clean the shavings, sterilize them, rebag them and resell them, and they can do that up to five times in a row and then the shavings need to hit the hay. So they are innovating and moving very quickly with that, but then it's a matter of adoption too, so it needs to work on both sides.
Megan:People that are innovating need to be mashed up with the people that are willing to try the new products, and I think one of the challenges is that people with horses like what they've been using for the past 10 years and they maybe don't wanna switch Like I like my fluffy shavings that I've been using for the past five years. I trust it. I like how it looks in the stalls. I like how it picks up. So I think there is maybe a lack of the tech background in the horse world Be coming up with the solutions more quickly than also the lack of adoption and people being willing to try these new things and truly support it. I think that's something that needs to be a cultural shift from the horses industry. My point is say we wanna support these companies so that they are successful and thrive, so that we have more options that are sustainable long term.
Jen:I don't have a cap, but I've seen this marketed online, which is these litter boxes that are essentially these like self cleaning systems to be able to save on a lot of the kitty litter. Does that exist yet for horse bedding? Because gosh like these two men on the call haven't done my call yet. There's a lot of bedding that gets wasted, so I can imagine the ability to be able to just put that through something and then have I don't know like 30, 40% of it saved instead of just getting thrown away. I could see that being a huge selling point.
Megan:Yes, and I think, as barns are now being built from scratch, we just had a call with someone last week. It was an awesome couple. They're building a barn from the ground up and they want to make it as sustainable as possible and creating this menu of options for them to look at, just even from start to finish. I'm going to dive into those things. That there is a separator from a building from scratch standpoint, i don't know one yet. I agree with you It should exist, having mucked a bunch of stalls before And like there should be something that just comes up and takes the manure out.
Megan:Talked about this. I don't know what to call it other than a thing that he has And it's like a big metal spinny contraption that you can put the manure in and it separates the manure from the shavings, and I have no idea what he's using it for right now. But to me, i want to go look at it because if that's something that can help on the back end, if everyone had that in their barn or one of these transfer facilities had it and then could separate the shavings from the manure, it might make a better case for compulter fertilizer company and then something that would be a byproduct from just the shavings, if you can separate it out.
Megan:So, not seeing one yet myself, but I've heard them and I'm interested to look into them more.
Jen:Yeah, I'll be in building everything to work.
Sam:It's a really interesting point about the idea that drum could be successful, because it basically just highlights what I've just been thinking for the last 10 minutes is that the problem that the space has for all of these things is that how do you get at this market If you're a business right And you've got to make this large capital investment to create this facility that's going to be out of produce manure on a scale large enough that allows you to actually then create a byproduct that you can sell on a scale large enough to cover all the costs and make money. And then you need to invest in all the infrastructure of signing up the customers, collecting the manure and then having it all across the country because it's physical assets. The problem is that, like, the people you're trying to get at the market are barns, they're horse shows, everything, and they're just not connected. So my background is in defense contracting. Like, in defense contracting, there's a mature infrastructure. There is major prime contractors who could deliver all the projects. You just need to go to these people, convince them to buy what you're buying and then you get massive contracts that spread across the world Where, in this case and it's not just the case for a large organization, it's the case for a small organization.
Sam:If you want to sponsor a horse show, you've got to literally figure out what the horse show is, you've got to find the show manager, you've got to track down the email address or their phone number, you've got to try to set a meeting, you've got to convince them to buy it, and it's just.
Sam:There's no infrastructure to make this a scalable operation, except for just hitting the streets and going after it, which leads you to believe. Your only real options if you want to try and do this at scale at this investment is one go after the circuit, so something like long jeans jumping to R or split rock jumping to R. These had some sort of infrastructure where you can invest time in one business contract and get multiple contracts. Or, as you said, the businesses that are going to be more successful are just going to be the B2C businesses that just sell direct to the consumer, because the B2B contract space is going to be really hard to piece together. But if you can create a product that you can sell on a website for 200 bucks with a credit card checkout and then it's just a limited to your dorm, that is like an innovation. So maybe the equestria industry does require more local, smaller farm by farm innovation As opposed to, like industry, wide network innovation.
Megan:I agree. I agree Because it is such a unique challenge for each individual barn and each individual venue Because they all have different components to them And maybe there are a few products that you could productize and sell farm to farm or show to show is something that we're thinking about and use the network to just sell it, say this is the price. You can either get it or don't get it, and that's as simple as the transaction is. But then the speed of B, like you're saying, there's so much friction between connecting an outside company to the horse show And whether it's the sponsors, the team or the catering team, and then with the person on the other end. It is a lot of just hand holding for that, which can be done and I think should be done long term It's just gonna take more time And I think it might take doing a small demonstration one year and then doing a bigger project the next year, and it could be in any of the different verticals that are involved with the horse show.
Megan:But then it does bring me to the idea of the networks that could almost support, not necessarily a mandate across barns, but the channels that could help, i think, if you staffed the FEI. I'm speaking at the American Horse Council event next week and they're trying to just move the industry forward in a few ways and they've not been thinking about sustainability. But there is that network idea and say, hey, we have all of these farms under our governance, how do we share with them these solutions? And, honestly, those governing bodies could make money from that as well if they were to be overseeing those different channels and almost the sales connector for it. So yeah, i see the challenge on both sides. There is such a local factor to it, but there is an opportunity to create like a higher governing body network that could promote solutions as well.
Sam:Yeah.
Jen:Just gonna be saying like what's possible? Like I'd be curious to see how did lead build it come into place? because it's one of those things where when you go and see this very loudly promoted lead building and you've got the badge and you can see all different kinds of cool things that they've incorporated into the design, it's like you get a little bit of FOMA. Wow, like we could do this at our building, and I think we mentioned this before when we chatted. But here in California, so many of these residential homes have solar panels on them, and more so than I've ever seen in anywhere else in the state, including Florida where I'm from, where there's the sunshine state. So why are there more solar panels?
Megan:in there.
Jen:Just being able to see what's possible, which is, i think, really exciting about what you're doing, because you're the pioneer in all of this And so once it's debuted at WEF, that's just gonna spark conversations to other venues and so many people come to the WEF series and so they're gonna be able to see what's possible and try to implement solutions at their own barns. So it feels like you're not like the very beginning, which is really exciting to see how they develop over the next few years.
Megan:Yes, it is. It is And I think it's really fun to use WEF as a platform for these solutions. They are so game. It's awesome.
Megan:Michael Stone, who's there, is just recognizes as well how much it's responding to the community but also realizing we need it for the planet and for us to continue what we're doing. A lot of the people around the shows too, they recognize that what we're doing is. It does have a big impact and also it's pretty affluent community that has the power to make change And I think they are willing to. They just need the pathways to be able to contribute And just to jump on that as well. That it is within show jumping and it's coming up with these solutions and people within show jumping or hunters and equitation can come up with something.
Megan:But where my next step is looking to go to is say, if we need scale to succeed, but there's a local area, let's not just get stuck in those disciplines and try to create a solution for show jumping or hunters and jumpers. Let's say, okay, this is a local area that has horses that are in polo, they're in racing, they're in Western, whatever it is, but maybe those all together have enough manure or enough plastics or enough shavings bags to create a solution that works across them, and I've not seen anything that does that right now, which is where it's really exciting because you can look at those, create selection, because you can stop a little bit across the horse world. How you can connect those different pieces and, mostly, create new products as well something that is a specific version of something that exists But maybe works now specifically for horses be really awesome.
Sam:Have you noticed any difference in response to your proposal and your services across the different sports and the different discipline?
Megan:I Haven't too much, of one or two that I can talk about soon potentially but there are.
Megan:West. I'm seeing more Criticism of the equestrian world I don't know if that's because I'm just making a guess that it's associated with, like cattle's and cattle and Click, different ranch farms and properties, and they have regulations and things that are being put in place just to consider the impact. So I have seen some of those disciplines, western specifically, having people come to them and say what are you guys doing about it? How can we be better? And I think it's because of that association that they're now thinking about it more. And then I think, with the discipline that have brands attached to them, or Or we'll start promoting more and get to that ESPN level, then those ones as well, or have it in the back of their minds that this is something that we need to do if we're gonna start promoting ours and make it like F1 racing or things that just have more awareness. Those disciplines have their awareness grow. I think they also need to have their environmental impact Awareness grow within.
Sam:I think there's I think you're an inclusion course with something you may not be happy about make images that You're gonna spend a lot more time on the West Coast or an East Coast girl, but I think it's part of the adoption of this early on. You're probably gonna spend a lot of time on the West Coast Selling to get up and running, because there's so much more forward-leading when it comes to great policies.
Megan:Yes, i know I'm learning that the hard way a bit, i don't mind it. I love the West Coast, would love me by cup. We do have some business proposition to share with my fiance but it is. I found, especially with the utilities in Florida they're not friendly and Community solar is not something that they like to, or where you could get a network of barns Working off of one connected solar field. Maybe just Florida is not a good state for that.
Megan:It's a little concerning of what policies could be brought on and the next Depends on elections and who's in office and things that come up. I think we are very secure with just federal policies that are in place, the recent ones that kind of walk it in so that your rates, especially with solar, can't really be messed with if you're in by this year or next year. But locally, state by state, it is completely different. Good thing is it's all trending to be more favorable as we go. I think there are policies that are put in place to support federal rebates and your county rebates and there are just lots of different things that you can do to cut the foster Implementation in which is where it gets fun. But I agree West Coast and of the other states are a bit more favorable with the how they support it. Look into that war.
Noah:Hey everyone. So we are approaching about an hour, so I have one more question that I want to ask before we end the podcast today how much impact does climate change have on our equestrian for sports, and How much longer do you think we could keep on doing what we're doing Until like we really have to turn the switch off?
Megan:I think it is a global response that needs to happen is the hard part that I think we have, and I'd be hard to put like Years on it that I don't think sea level rise is gonna hurt too many farms anytime soon. It could be within the next 30 years, though We don't know. I think my biggest threat that I see are just the rise of natural disasters. Whether it's wildfires in California that you see and that affects barns or shows, whether it's from smoke We're actually having to see your horses from them Hornados, hurricanes all of these just really Intense events I can see as being something that we need to just work on.
Megan:Climate change as a whole, because that will disrupt the sport, it will disrupt horses. I think there's long term of just the animal welfare as well. How much grass do we have for them to be on? how much enjoyment do we get from being out in nature with them? And if nature doesn't exist, then that will be different for our kids and the next generation as well. I think it's gonna be hard for the next generation I think one generation from now. So, like my kid, that will be fine to be able to live in a world where it's fairly similar to Hours as it goes for horse sports. But I am concerned for that next generation. But will they get the same experience that we did from a nature and environment standpoint? Will horses be able to be run in the same way and say two generations from now is where I see, is the name Brett.
Sam:I also think it's not too much of a stretch to say that if the world gets hotter and humans are seen to be Loading up a force with a bunch of gear and running it and jumping it outside in the heat, especially as an extiration becomes more, more social and liberal and their perspectives are progressive, and then it inspects on things. Just that rhetoric, ramping up of what you guys do is animal abuse. You're exhausting them in the heat, they're not getting a downtime. You shouldn't be riding animals like this, which, to anyone, is any industry knows, is not a new animals taken better care of than, of course, that's taken care of by a human who loves it, that's. But that's like the impact of climate change could be a second-order impact as opposed to a direct impact.
Megan:Yeah, and I think verified to when I answered that I was thinking of, and correctly Thinking of, just our high-level competition as well, like how does it affect competition? but it definitely will have an effect on just lower level horse care and people that have course as a hobby Or as something in their backyard, and I think of therapeutic barns and just the cost of things going up and amal welfare does become something to think about because Fuel costs go up, so does fees, so does hay, so do all these things actually seed worthes and keep them happy and healthy? Same with water. Depends where you're looking at it, and especially globally. I think of horses in other countries that are just pampered as the ones that we think of, and how are they being treated and their Land, water and just feed everything that keeps them happy.
Megan:Right now, as people get stretched thin on their own spending, and so does the welfare of the horses. So I think, just from a global standpoint, there's the impact, just shows. It will see when I talked about before, but then also just all other horses and horse care. It will be affected long-term.
Megan:I might just have around east Of like, where part of my thinking was with the winter or bushrine festival, and do you think that the force world has a very neat angle where we can influence the world with positive change for climate and just environment, because it is like a very affluent group that has power and influence. So if we can use these places where everyone gathers I think these horse shows, where there's long jeans, global champions tour, it is one of the only places where some of these top-level people There are thinkers, their thought leaders and there are people that have innovation and solutions outside of the horse world And if we can influence them here at the horse show, then that message can spread, i think, beyond the horse world. His words very exciting.
Sam:Yeah, absolutely. Let's be hugely helpful and very interesting for, for a list of sort of learn more about your organization. Where can they find you, what are your social media accounts, what's the website, etc absolutely.
