Pegasus Podcast
@thepegasusapp https://www.thepegasus.app/🐴 Conversations with the movers and shakers of the global equestrian industry. Hosted by Pegasus founders Sam Baynes and Jen Tankel.
Pegasus Podcast
Navigating the Transformation of China's Equestrian Market with Zoe Quin
Zoe Quin is the founder and CEO of WonderHorse, a platform for the Chinese equine community.
In the aftermath of COVID, Zoe brings compelling insights into the resilience and transformation of this niche yet burgeoning sector.
From the adaptability of equestrian clubs to the unwavering passion of China's middle and upper classes for horse riding, our discussion unpacks the trends that define the current landscape.
Wonder Horse's strategic pivot from consumer-facing services to B2B consulting emerges as a beacon for foreign brands seeking to navigate the intricacies of Chinese market entry, guided by Zoe's expertise.
Zoe shares her observations on the disciplines captivating China's riders, revealing the dominance of jumping, the ascent of dressage, and the nuanced popularity of eventing, set against its international victories.
In this episode, we discuss:
- The tug-of-war between the prestige of European equestrian brands and the emerging local alternatives vying for attention
- The evolution of sporting preferences in China
- The soaring demand for foreign trainers and their irreplaceable presence in Chinese equestrian clubs
- And more.
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Zoe, thank you very much for coming back and joining us again on the Pegasus podcast. In case there are those that didn't actually catch the first time we interviewed you, do you just want to give the audience a quick summary of who you are and what you do?
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you. Hi, sam and James, thank you for having me back again on your podcast. My name is Zoe King. I'm based in Shanghai, but I travel frequently now. Luckily, after COVID, we can travel again to Europe, france, uk, germany, etc. But most of the time I'm based in Shanghai and also travelling within China. I'm the founder and CEO of Wonder Horse. Wonder Horse is a business solution provider focusing on Chinese acquired market. The company was created four years ago in Shanghai by myself and our goal is to provide full services to our clients in doing business in China specifically, and only focus on acquired market.
Speaker 1:Right and if I can sum that up, so last time we spoke to you and you were only two years into your journey, so now it's been two years later you essentially were for lack of a better term a consultant. So a foreign equestrian company was looking to enter into the equestrian market in China. They could connect with you, you guys were partnered together and then you would help them basically get their operations off the ground. Connect with business partners, set up all their services they need to essentially get their business up and going on the ground in China. Correct, and is that still your core focus? I know back then you were also looking at having a tech platform that was going to help become a marketplace for buying and selling equestrian products and services. Is that still going, or are you more focused on just the consulting part?
Speaker 2:We are mostly focusing on B2B consulting and B2B services business for the moment being because, of course, obviously we have the three years COVID time. In mainland China, everyone is pretty locked down. I think the B2C business was very hard to carry on and it's very energy, time and resource consuming to do B2C business in China. Just the timing wasn't right. So we decided to switch most of our energy, time and personnel to B2B business.
Speaker 3:And so what does that look like? So that's your B2B business. Is that primarily focusing on companies that are outside of China trying to actively get in, or are you doing some more awareness campaigning to let people know that the Chinese horse market is a really good market to consider, if they hadn't yet already thought about it?
Speaker 2:We do both, I would say we have. In terms of nationality of our clients. We have both foreign clients and Chinese clients. And for foreign clients we work for prestigious brands in equestrian industry and also question institutions and raising federations, regulators, to get into China. But we also work for Chinese clients, which are top list equestrian clubs who are looking for resources in international scale and also some Chinese investors who are willing to invest overseas.
Speaker 1:Okay, so a few things I want to jump into.
Speaker 1:I want to spend some time to start with talking about what has changed in the last two years since we spoke to you, so where I want to start is just throwing out some numbers. So last time we spoke to you, you made the comment that in 2015 there was around 300 equestrian clubs in China and then by 2019, so just four years later that number had increased to 3,000. You also made the point that the equestrian industry in China up until about 2021 was mainly dominated by the Germans coming in and basically setting up training schools to help train some of the trainers locally. But there was also a drastic need because of that growing demand in the equestrian clubs, there was also a drastic need for more foreign trainers to come into the country to help train the local trainers to build that institutional knowledge. So in the last two years has that number continued to increase exponentially of how many equestrian clubs there are, and is it still the Germans mainly, and a few other Europeans that are dominating the move into the sport horse industry in China?
Speaker 2:Very interesting. I just have spoken on the weaponers organized by the UK consulate in China. Today we talk about the recent movement and recent overviews on Chinese question market. The number, in terms of the number of equestrian clubs in the past two years hugely affected by COVID as physical business, the number has been declined. I think it is estimated around a little bit more than 2,000 equestrian clubs last year. So it stopped growing and declined a little bit. I think some of them have to determine to close their business because of COVID, but the numbers of them members or the numbers of riders didn't decline so much.
Speaker 2:That's these two different rates or different developments. I would like to interpret that the business industry has faced temporary difficulty due to the microeconomy, but our target audience, I would say the target clients, individuals, middle class and higher wealthy families. They are less touched by the COVID so they are still capable of spending money, invest or paying their kids coaching lessons in equestrian clubs. So different in terms of business stakeholders and the participant. When it comes to the system, the German system is still well.
Speaker 2:I would say, first of all, these foreign countries, foreign systems were less active, obviously during the last two years, but French system and Britain system catching up as well, especially both. A French system gained a lot of popularity by maybe lowering the entancy of employing the system in equestrian clubs. But the British system, bhs, has been. Just this year they've given a certification to two question clubs, one in Chongqing, the other one in Shanghai. So it's the first type that the BHS have more member clubs other than the only equestrian clubs in Beijing for so many years. So I think the change is that everyone is getting to the market and try to take a piece of cake, take a percentage of the market shares.
Speaker 1:Right. So, if I can sum that up, going back to your first point, covid has obviously had a major impact on the equestrian market in China, but only in terms of quantity. So it hasn't really affected the commitment to the sport by those who are still in a position to be able to invest in the sport and commit to the sport. So the lower class writers in China have been quite affected by COVID and have been able to participate at the same levels you said. The middle and upper class Chinese families that still have the means are still participating in it as heavily as they were prior, if not accelerating their participation. It's just a matter of whether you have access to it or not, but there hasn't been a wane in interest.
Speaker 2:I would say the operators, the business owners of equestrian industry. They are mostly affected by COVID, more affected by the COVID than the participant.
Speaker 3:Yes, so in China during COVID were the clubs closing down.
Speaker 2:Yes, like I just said, that two years ago if we estimated the numbers of equestrian clubs around 3,000, now we are at 2,000. So I think we lost some of them.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was interesting because here there were even more. I mean, we were in the United States.
Speaker 1:It's America, yeah, it's.
Speaker 3:America. So a little different during COVID, but it was growing.
Speaker 2:here. You guys are maybe less affected, you are not locking down for so long time. And also, I would say, the participant. As I said, the number of participants still slowly going up, I think because people have more time to spend on equestrian spots and also the chain in China in general is to go outdoor during the COVID time. People pay more attention to their wellness, to the well-being and families participate, really joined together to spend more time together on sports. So that makes the busy dad would not travel again. They may want to spend a little bit more time with their kids on stables.
Speaker 1:Last time we spoke, you made the comment that ice hockey, golf and equestrian sports were the three that were being pursued by the middle class and up. Increasingly they were like the three booming youth sports. Because of this point you just made, which is that equestrian sports is inherently an outdoor sport and more people are trying to spend more time outdoors because of COVID, does that mean that equestrian sports have pulled ahead of ice hockey and golf in terms of their popularity, or is it pretty much the same as it was two years ago?
Speaker 2:I think it's pretty much the same, because I think it's also the barriers of entrance for equestrian sports In your city. You need to have a question club which calls. Enough. Maybe the first time you go there for a child is easy. The thing is to go there consistently, every weekend, maybe every two weeks. This takes a lot of commitment.
Speaker 2:So I think the beginners or the child riders we may have more of them who really can continue to do the sport remain almost the same before COVID. And also I may add that the Chinese people want to do outdoor sport. No, covid is effectively one of the reasons, but the other one is also in a state of mind that the Chinese people, not only in the one two cities, big cities, but also in the small cities, they spend a lot of time on themselves and they are searching for their inner peace. So there's this new chain for the whole society. And when you talk about golf and other ice hockey etc. I think they are still popular as elite sports, but that the most popular sports in China now the new sport is fishing.
Speaker 3:Oh, really it's very funny. Yeah, that's amazing. Where are people going to fish? When I think of China, I don't think of many.
Speaker 2:They go to the lake and everywhere I have waters. Yeah, a lot of lakes, more rivers. I think the main is not to have the big fish but the fishing time, and also I think the TikTok and the social media contribute to a lot to accelerate this phenomenon. People live stream while they're fishing on the riverside and obviously nothing happened for two hours, but still attracting people to see. I don't understand personally, but I respect. I see a lot of other brands, especially men boys. They very keen into this, if we can say a sport.
Speaker 1:I think they would call it a sport.
Speaker 3:So what would you say? That the equestrian market had the trending highlight at one point in China, and is that no longer the trending sport there?
Speaker 2:I think it's still the trending sport, especially when it comes to education. Kids pursuing higher education or study overseas is still a good choice for parents when they want to add more value or adding up in their CVs. And also the spans that the investment required by Equation Club, equation Sports is still set, aligned between ancient parents for elite families they consider as elite sports. Yeah, I think Equation Sports is still changing, as I said, that maybe more new beginners or who want to try. We have more riders this kind.
Speaker 1:And so going back to my second question, which was about which countries are sending in training facilities and programs. So you mentioned that it was essentially it used to be Germany that basically led the way you said. France and Britain have started to come in and, as you said, get their slice of the pie. So that's from a coming in and building up some infrastructure to have influence in the equestrian industry. But as far as brands go, have you noticed whether specific sorts of brands are increasingly taking an interest in the equestrian market in China that are foreign, and is it still reserved to the high-end luxury consumer brands, or are you finding more equestrian apparel brands are starting to enter the market?
Speaker 2:In a question market in China. Currently there are more high-end brands from Europe, especially from France and Italy when it comes to equestrian equipment and sedery those two countries, of course. With the popularity of the sports and also more beginners, more kids, they may not want to spend so much money on their first outfit, so there may be rooms for low-cost equipment and outfits as well. So I think there's still rooms for everyone. But of course, if the products are low cost, it makes it more difficult and less competitive on Chinese markets because we have the decalone overtake all the sports in China. So I think the brands have a very clear position on the product or on the pricing. Maybe there's a room for those products or brands who are very vertical, focusing on one solution like safety. I think the airbag for kids and for body protection products are selling very well. So that's basically the marketplace for the equipment.
Speaker 1:As an outsider, my initial assumption would be China manufactures a lot of the products that the rest of the world sells anyway, and it's going to be cheaper to buy a lower level product, not a highly advertised, high-end luxury brand product. It would be a lot easier to get your hands on that and buy that cheaply if you bought it in China. Are there Chinese manufacturers creating low-cost equestrian apparel and tax to sell to the Chinese equestrian market? Or do you find that the equestrians, even though they might be new to the sport and looking for entry-level gear because they are middle upper class, they still want that entry-level gear from a foreign brand because of the status of the foreign brand?
Speaker 2:The answer for the first question is yes, of course China. They manufacture. They launch their brands as well. A little bit, you see, much more low-cost than the imported brands. And the consumer when they come to a known sport is less about their consumption power but more about their knowledge of the brands and the brand awareness and also the recommendation from professionals. They rely on their clubs, their coach at the beginning, who recommends them those equipments, and also, the further they have more knowledge about other brands and the specificity of certain products they may purchase higher or more prestigious brands and products is the levels, more about the level of their knowledge about the sport is not really connected to their consumption power.
Speaker 1:It's not about how much money you have, etc. It's about which brands do you know, about which brands do you like, and that knowledge and affection for brands is usually comes through points of authority, so your trainer, or if there's a celebrity rider who has a certain brand, that's what drives the value of a product. Okay.
Speaker 3:What are the dominant disciplines in China Jumping?
Speaker 1:Last time you said jumping, but you said dressage and trail riding was also growing in prominence. Is that still the case? Is it still those three?
Speaker 2:Yes. The third one is what? Trail riding oh, leisure trail riding, yes but as elite sports, china team did very well in eventing. The China team just won two gold medals at 100 Asian Games for eventing both for teams and individuals. We have the best performance in eventing in the higher levels, but it's less popular and China team won the silver medals at Asian Games as well. Maybe still a gap between the riding population and the elites atlates in terms of discipline.
Speaker 1:Last time we spoke, you made the comment that one of the biggest restrictions in the equestrian industry in China is literally just access to space, and that the Chinese market needs to be very creative with how they get access to space to be able to ride. Is it fair to say that, even though china is doing very well in eventing, it's less likely to grow at the rate of sage, rossage or jumping because in order to practice eventing in a practice cross country, you do need access to that space. So China's more set up for sports that take place in a small, confined area to succeed much more greatly.
Speaker 2:Yes and no. I think the chain for jumping and less popular in eventing is not only in China, is in world. World because there were more restrictions when it comes to cross country and probably dangerous in practicing this sport. So, as China have more teenager riders and parents are really protective, so I think that the level of danger is one of the reason why eventing is not so popular.
Speaker 1:Right, it's more the danger as opposed to the access to space.
Speaker 3:What about western sports? Have those various types of yellowstone inspired events taken off?
Speaker 2:Yes, this is what is also practicing in the north of China. I think they're more popular. In Shandong province, for example, there's a small community who are doing this, but they are more adult riders and then less teenagers and less competitions, less visibility, is it true? But I think those people who are practicing in the sport really like it, really passionate about it and not about education, going to a good university, not about showing off is really passionate about this sport.
Speaker 1:And to that point. So, if jumping and dressage and trail riding and, to a lesser extent, inventing the more prominent disciplines, how is that affecting where the Chinese market is getting their horses from, as well as the staff that you're trying to convince to move to China to help train your trainers? Last time we spoke, I believe you said that most of your horses still came from Europe and they, you guys, still import a lot of warm bloods from Europe. Is that still the pro source of horses into China? Yes, have you been approached personally as a consultant? Have you found that you've had many American businesses or horse traders or agents trying to get in contact with you to explore expanding to the Chinese market?
Speaker 2:for selling horse or for the other sectors. Both selling horses, as well as selling apparel and tack and services for selling horses is commonly known that people just bought from Europe, most of the time for different reasons. But for the rest of the business there are other countries, stakeholders, coming to the market with their expertise. In certain aspect I was approached by several American business owners and stakeholders in the industry before COVID, but after COVID there's less but your opinions. They are still very active.
Speaker 3:So are you finding that a lot of people are coming to you from various other countries, or are you still having to go out and can tell the world about all the opportunities in China?
Speaker 2:Of course, those who have been in the market, who have known the market, they may have more faith and they will be convinced that the place to go and it's the booming market you have to take over for the next 10 years.
Speaker 2:But for stakeholders in our industry, well, well, maybe they don't still have a chance or didn't have the chance to come to see China, or they just come for a horse fair or for two days and listen to the speeches but not really go to the stable, talk to the right people, and there's still a gap or many things to do to let international stakeholders to get to know better the Chinese equestrian market. Especially now with the economic slowing down in China, that raises a lot of concerns and uncertainty for business and for investors. So I can understand that they may be less confident, as they used to be. But it's the critical time and you have to take the chance when it's a critical time, because everything goes well and it may be too late. I think the right timing for new challenges, to look for the new market, and China should be one of the place to watch.
Speaker 1:Sure, I mean, basically there's some all this up and I'll just give you the opinion of what I suspect a lot of American let's say American businesses would think about it, knowing not much about it. You know, the whole reason we do this podcast with you is because we're trying to get more Americans to consider the idea of expanding their business to the Chinese market. But if I'm an American I haven't listened to this podcast. I don't know much about it. I've never done business in China before. My thought process would be the fact if I sell tack and apparel, then I know for a fact that I probably produced most of my tack and apparel in China and then I have it shipped to the states and then I deliver it to my clients in the state. So I would assume that if I tried to sell the same stuff in China, I would just be undercut by a local seller and a local distributor. So there's that point.
Speaker 1:And the second point is, like most of the most American, you know, a very unfamiliar with the Chinese geography. So just the idea of how they go about setting up a business there do they need to get a special business license? What is the government's role in that business license. Is it dependable, or am I going to have my business license taken away from me for some reason? I don't understand, and I've lost money in the market, etc. So I would assume that that's probably why a lot of Americans haven't gone into it hell for leather like the Europeans have, who've always been more sneaky throughout history, I suppose.
Speaker 3:I mean just more trialed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, more. I don't want to use the word colonialist, but more colonialist, so I mean so out of interest as a consultant, right, I mean your job is to basically take that mindset and make them feel more comfortable with the idea. But based off me saying that would be your first response to that sort of mindset if I was an American approaching you.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, iphone is manufacturing in China and is sold in China, and despite the fact that we have many, many, so many Chinese smartphone brands in China. So iPhone is also the sales, market shares or the revenues of Chinese market, for iPhone is still on top on the whole world while pool. So I think probably answer the first question. And also I think we should have faith on our products and services. If it is very easy to duplicate overseas market, maybe it's not the right products to sell overseas. And if we really think our products have the specificity, not only has the technology, has the innovation, I think it's not so easy to be copied. And the second thing is your answer for yourself. I think, yeah, the market. It may seem complicated as it is, but still a lot of American companies assist in Chinese market and European companies assist in the market. I think it's always the balance of risk and opportunities.
Speaker 3:So if you were any kind of company that was looking to get into the Chinese market obviously a question, but say it's an apparel brand, what would you say would be the best next step? They're getting in touch with you, but is there like any kind of central place to go to for resources for anything? I mean you mentioned potential government restrictions or any issues that could come from the Chinese government there. So, like, what would be your advice for someone who's really interested? They just don't even know where to start.
Speaker 2:I think they can start by really looking to their products and services in the US in the home headquarters, only export the best sellers for the beginning. I think a very new product or a small company may be more complicated to go into China. Also, I may suggest them to do a small market research on the similar products if they have already similar products and what's the difference with the products, to see if there are rooms for their market and by which angle they should enter into the market. And also, if I may suggest them to talk to Focus Group. We can help them to set up Focus Group in China and talk to the professionals, get their feedbacks. I think this is the most cost-effective way to make a first step without the risk of investing to many monies in the beginning.
Speaker 1:Sure, and everything we've been talking about so far has essentially been focused on products. Am I right in saying and I think we talked about this last time which was, while products are, they're great and there is a consumer need for them, really the most in-demand thing product in the market at the moment or it was two years ago was actually services. It was trainers coming into the country, providing education, helping train the staff at the local clubs, and that was one of the more in-demand products that the Chinese Equestrian Market was looking at from a B2B perspective and that can't be as easily duplicated, right, because you want the person there with the experience providing the training in person. So is that still the case? Is there still a really high demand for foreign trainers to come and provide their training, or has that kind of been supplemented by the British horses, the Britons, the French and the Germans coming in and setting up these institutions?
Speaker 2:Well, first of all I would not call the trainers the products. I think they provide more services than products and yes, they're in demand, especially during the three year COVID time. Many foreign coach trainers originally live in China have left the country, so there are less Chinese foreign coaches in China now. And when international travel became possible again in March, I think we received a lot of demand from some demand not so many, but some demands from Equestrian clubs looking actively for foreign coaches. Some of them have their intention in certain systems, certain countries, but some of them they just want foreign coaches who can lead the lessons and change their trainers and also provide a certain English lessons to their beginners riders, the kids, teenager riders.
Speaker 3:Would you say that any kind of remote learning with Equestrian sports is popular there, so any kind of classes or digital courses or you know? There's just there's so many things here in the States. I don't know if that's also something that's popular there, but has that? Have you seen a trend in utilizing some of those online learnings to get better if there are fewer trainers currently in China?
Speaker 2:Good question. I think with the live streaming on social media and booming from Chinese TikTok and all those social media platform, the live stream became very affordable and very easy to implement. So I've seen several high-level Chinese coach already. They began to post their lessons or their clinic form, the section of their clinics, online on their social media accounts. There is one chain, the other is to do really remote session. I think there's not a lot now but probably in the upcoming years I see there will maybe some development on this, not just technical. I think technology nowadays can be carried out very, quite easily with all those applications etc.
Speaker 2:But the chess and the Chinese riders and especially higher level riders, they have to go to compete, to succeed in certain competitions. They may need consistently followed by their foreign coach, but the foreign coach is not coming from nowhere. They have to build a certain kind of chess before they do the remote session. Probably, I can imagine, is the Chinese riders. They already changed overseas with this coach and after a while they accept to agree to take the remote lessons. This way is more natural.
Speaker 1:Right. So for the majority of the successful remote training platforms it's usually used by riders who have taken some training with that person in person in first. That gives them that belief in the trainer and their skills and their way of doing things, and then they return back to China and they continue the training remotely.
Speaker 3:And then is it one where, once they do return, a lot of the riding population there will follow what that one prominent rider does, or will just the average rider look to see what is possible themselves, so they don't necessarily have to go to the Chinese professional rider, if that makes sense?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So just to sum it up, so what Jen's basically asking is if one prominent rider trains overseas and then comes back and then starts using an online platform to continue their training, is that enough validation for other people who didn't go overseas to use that training as well? Or does everyone who uses the online training basically need to go overseas first and come back in order to believe in the value of online training?
Speaker 2:I think it's better to really the riders, not the coach, first. And also pilot recommendation is good but the influence is limited. You can only recommend some of the riders in your club. And also, let's don't forget that may cost competition and conflict of inches of Chinese local coaches. They may reduce their lessons, reduce their income. So I think the better way is go through the clubs, kind of sending those riders through the club to overseas and then coming back they have built up some charts, got the contact and then do the remote lessons one on one.
Speaker 1:All right. Well, thank you very much for joining us again today, so we really appreciate it?
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely, and so where can people connect with you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Thank you so much for having me and if you have interest in Chinese market, you can drop me an email at zoey at wander-hostcom or go to visit our website, 3wwonder-hostcom.
Speaker 1:Fantastic, and we'll leave links to your website and stuff in the show notes so people can find you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was really great catching up with you. Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2:Bye, thank you.
