Pegasus Podcast
@thepegasusapp https://www.thepegasus.app/🐴 Conversations with the movers and shakers of the global equestrian industry. Hosted by Pegasus founders Sam Baynes and Jen Tankel.
Pegasus Podcast
The Ins & Outs of Running a Global Equestrian Trade Organization
As the Executive Director of the British Equestrian Trade Association (BETA), Claire Williams works with global tack providers and sellers to help them go to market and serve all of us riders.
BETA is literally the largest trade organization of its kind in the world. Claire has a bird’s-eye view on manufacturing and retailing the tack that you’re currently using.
In this episode, we discuss:
- Why British companies should consider entering European markets before the American one.
- What your mainstream grocer did to sell tack (and whether or not they were successful).
- Where the money is going in Britain’s £8 billion equestrian economy.
- And more.
🐴 This episode is brought to you by Pegasus, the first modern event management system that makes it easy to host and run equestrian events. Sign up for early access at www.thepegasus.app.
Be sure to follow Pegasus on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, TikTok and subscribe to The Oxer, the #1 weekly newsletter for global equestrian industry happenings. 🗞️
The reason I'm harping on about it is because it proves exactly what we talk about all the time, which is, if you're thinking strategically for a large company and you're looking at the market, you're looking at the market data, it's very obvious that it's a very good market to go after. But then you know, it also proves the other counterpoint, which is that there are idiosyncrasies to this market, that if you don't get it right, then you could end up going down a path and then realize it doesn't work out for whatever reason, because you've not tuned enough to the market.
Speaker 2:Hi everyone. My name is Noah Levy and I'm the producer of our Pegasus podcast, hosted by our founders, sam Baines and Jen Temple. On today's show, we are hosting Claire Williams, the executive director of the British Equestrian Trade Association, also known as BETA. Beta is literally the largest equestrian industry trade association in the entire world. It even impacts the tack that you are using today, claire, sam, jen Dysak all the aspects of our global industry, this one, from how certain countries take requests from products to market to why it's better for firms to start out in Europe rather than America. Alright, let's get into it.
Speaker 1:Right. Well, claire, thank you very much for joining us today. For our listeners to make life easy, do you just want to give them a quick overview of who you are and who you?
Speaker 4:work for Yep. My name is Claire Williams and I am the executive director of the British Equestrian Trade Association and I've been here since 2000.
Speaker 1:Fantastic, and if you can give the viewers a one minute or one sentence summary of kind of what the British Equestrian Trade Association does, what's its overview?
Speaker 4:Okay. The British Equestrian Trade Association, or BETA, is there to represent the interests of its member companies. We represent over 800 companies from the retail, manufacturing, distribution and equestrian service sector.
Speaker 1:Right, unlike most of our listeners will be American. But unlike in America, where you have the USEF which regulates the sport, BETA is more of a trade association that represents the businesses in the equestrian economy.
Speaker 4:Exactly so. Our interests are those companies that either do B2B or B2C, so they are the people who put and make the products on the shelves that the equestrians go out and buy.
Speaker 1:Fantastic, all right. Well, before we jump into that because I'm going to have a lot of questions about BETA and its operations and its role in the world let's just jump into a bit to your back story. So you're not British, but now you are in an official role in Britain. What's your background and how did you get there?
Speaker 4:Yeah, it was a bit weird. Actually I got one of the. It was really funny. One of the Royal Family once commented on that to me what's a person with an accent like yours doing running a British organisation? Which was really really funny.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like didn't we get rid of your lot down under.
Speaker 4:No, not the Kiwis no no, no, no, that's the. Australians. So I was born in New, zealand, born and raised in New Zealand. My parents are British. They immigrated in the 50s. I'm the youngest of five kids and I adored growing up in New Zealand. It is a brilliant place to grow up. But I went to university. I studied history and modern languages, so really useless subjects.
Speaker 1:Yeah, really really tangible hard skills.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I wanted to be a journalist but I didn't quite get there and so I went. When I graduated, I went to work for a government department, department of Trade and Industry, and that then put me into the consultancy area. I started devising companies on how to develop their business and did a lot of research for them. I then got transferred over.
Speaker 1:This is all still in New. Zealand. Yeah, this is still in New. Zealand.
Speaker 4:I went and worked for an international division and then one of my client companies, who was big on export, came to me and said we'd like you to go and live in Germany and do some market development for us, and every country wants to travel. So I bit their hand off and said yes, please, and got sent over to Germany on a two year contract by a New Zealand sheepskin, tannery.
Speaker 1:It never would have occurred to me that there would be an opportunity working for a sheepskin. I can't even pronounce that word. You said tannery. Oh, tannery, I thought you said something, tannery.
Speaker 3:Do they actively recruit from New Zealand, because you have a lot of sheep there.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so it's. In New Zealand. The tannery at the time was the biggest tannery in the world. We tanned a million sheepskins a year by product of the meat industry.
Speaker 4:So we didn't kill them for the skins. They were slaughtered for the meat industry and then the sheep, the skin with the wool attached, I could bore for England on sheepskin tannery, the rugs like attached. So it was a company called Bauron and in fact they sell big and warm art. They had an office in Denver, they had an office in Japan, they had an office in Germany and they had an office in the UK, and so they would always try to recruit internally because Kiwis love overseas. It's such a small country.
Speaker 4:We're all desperate to get away from the country and experience the big wide world, and so I went away on a two year contract and have never been back.
Speaker 1:Really, how old are you when you moved over?
Speaker 4:Oh, that'll be telling 26.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:Were you riding horses when you were in New Zealand? When did you get into the horse? Talk riding.
Speaker 4:I only went started horse riding when I graduated because my parents weren't horsey, family not horsey, and so I always wanted to ride. So as soon as I started earning I started riding, weighed up going golfing, loved it but but boring. So I sold my golf clubs and bought a saddle and so I started horse riding. So yeah, I was riding. I put the horse with a friend for two years, thinking I'd be back, but then I never got back. Two year contract turned into a 10 year contract and I loved it. It was a great, great time to be in Europe. It was just after the wall came down, so the whole of Eastern Europe was opening up. So I got to. I drove. My first business trip was driving from Germany to Warsaw to visit a manufacturer. So I did lots of Eastern Europe stuff. Because I'd done one of my languages at at uni was Russian really useful.
Speaker 1:Are your parents like? Are you sure you want to pick that one on top of the other subjects you've chosen?
Speaker 4:I was so lucky. My parents were just brilliant. They you know three girls and two boys and two girls, and they were parents that never said no. Whatever we wanted to do, they said yeah, sure you can go and do it. Yeah right, so yeah, so off. I went 10 years in Germany, a bit in between in the UK doing the UK market. So my territory was Iceland to Turkey, portugal to Russia.
Speaker 4:Oh, wow, so were you traveling all the time Quite a lot of the time, and so, yeah, we had distributors in some countries, which was easy, and then we were our own distributor in the UK and Germany, but we supplied companies like IKEA and some of the big department stores throughout Europe.
Speaker 1:So was it, was we used to supply ag.
Speaker 3:We supplied.
Speaker 1:Used to what happened.
Speaker 4:I think they went to.
Speaker 1:Did you leave the company and you lost the contract.
Speaker 4:No, the Chinese bought it.
Speaker 1:All right actually I think I wasn't there a huge lawsuit about ag? Because I think an American company trademarked globally the name ag and started sending cease and desist letters to Australian companies that produced ag boots that call them ag boots, and and then Australia, and then there was one guy in Australia who was a small operation, but it was just I am not taking this and he ended up taking the American company to court. A huge lock, a huge court case. Who's court? I think he took him to court. I think he won in America, because what he basically argued was this company in America has trademarked a name that is a general term in Australia and New Zealand. It's not an actual sort of name, it's a, it's a term, it's like a, it's like a word.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah, and he won, and he won. He like he beat the big company and you won. You won the case, I'm pretty sure.
Speaker 4:Yeah, one of my members is called Hilton Herbs In Hilton. The hotel chain sued them.
Speaker 3:Oh wait, hilton Hilton Herbs.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, herbs and H. This is an ongoing battle.
Speaker 3:I actually I my, my mom actually used to be a rep for Hilton Herbs.
Speaker 4:Wow, really.
Speaker 3:Yeah, she's. So she's in Florida and she's still, to this day, only buys the herb balls, and the horses love them.
Speaker 4:They're like sugar.
Speaker 3:They're really healthy. They're delicious. Yeah, she's, my mom's got a really good relationship with them. I forget their names, though.
Speaker 4:I don't know their reason. They're called Hilton. Is that the only thing found is a Hillary and Tony self. So they combine the hill of Hillary and the ton of Tony and got Hilton Herbs and that's why they won their case against Hilton Hotels.
Speaker 1:Oh well, they won their case because of how they came up with the name.
Speaker 3:Yeah, oh, that's so interesting.
Speaker 1:That's amazing.
Speaker 3:But I'm also surprised that they were on Hilton Hotels radar. That's quite significant.
Speaker 4:You'd be surprised when I trademarked part of the beta name. There's a really big Nestle make dog food in this country, huge conglomerate, and they opposed us registering the beta trademark because they do a dog food called beta. Would you believe? Yeah, it's it's honest, we popped up on the radar as well.
Speaker 1:I can't for the life of me understand why people are so touchy about things like that. Like I get it, like you own it, you own the trademark. Technically no one else is supposed to use it, but in reality the repercussions are very, very rare. If you do try and sue someone a completely different market with a completely different product then you must think pretty little of your customers thinking that they can't tell the difference.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Paris Hilton. They do have Paris Hilton going after Hilton Herbs. It's quite funny.
Speaker 1:Right. So you spent 10 great years frolicking around Europe just after the wars come down, and I'm sure what is a great party time?
Speaker 3:in Europe.
Speaker 1:And how do you end up getting? Where do you go next?
Speaker 4:Okay, so 10 years, I'm starting to think, yeah, things are changing. Maybe I want to move on. I'd, in between time, met my now husband and he lived in the UK and I lived in Germany, so there was a lot of commuting and I was going back to New Zealand and the end of 99, you're probably too young to remember when they, when we were moving from 99 to 2000, they all thought the computers were going to explode.
Speaker 1:I was 11. I think it was 11 at the time.
Speaker 3:I think it was nine. It was a big deal. The Y2K, yeah we were.
Speaker 1:We were young enough to get hysterical because we didn't know what was going on.
Speaker 4:So I was going back to New Zealand for Christmas. I was going via the UK and Bob put a copy of horse and hound in my hand which weirdly had turned up on his doorstep because he didn't subscribe. He got a free copy sent to him.
Speaker 1:Bob's, your now husband. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I say now husband, because we only got married this year after 28 years together. So it took really yeah Well who caved? He asked me Everybody said why didn't? You get married before now and I said never asked me.
Speaker 2:Wow, okay, we'll come back to that.
Speaker 4:So he. So he pressed this magazine in my hand and said there's a job I think you should look at in there. So this was a magazine that we don't subscribe to. That turned up on his doorstep as I was flying out to New Zealand. The deadline for the job was the second of January, and so I took it away, looked at it and I applied and it was the beta job.
Speaker 1:Right. So this was was this his hail Mary to get you to stay in Europe?
Speaker 4:He knew I wasn't going to go back at that.
Speaker 1:All right.
Speaker 4:Okay.
Speaker 3:Or at least to come over to Britain.
Speaker 4:Yeah, exactly. So the job was in Yorkshire, he had a pass in Yorkshire, but he was working in the south of England. So it all just fate and so. I applied for it, got it, and I haven't left.
Speaker 1:And how long you've been there for now 23 years. Right, so is it safe to say you've done every job in the association now?
Speaker 4:We're not that big so it's not hard to but yeah.
Speaker 1:Right, okay, so that's how you get there. So let's get back to beta.
Speaker 3:They're going to say get back to the 28 years together and finally getting married. Was it a magnificent wedding.
Speaker 4:It was lovely, it was a bit of easily had hundreds, but we didn't. The church only had room for 50. So 50 it was. It was just the best day, just really great. I think they say getting married older, you control your wedding more, you don't have to ask great aunt Evie.
Speaker 1:All right, gotcha yeah.
Speaker 4:All of the all of the guests were friends. It was great.
Speaker 1:Yeah, everyone's kids are grown up, so you don't have to worry about baby citizen, all that stuff. So everyone can just really give themselves to the day and tie one on.
Speaker 4:Yeah, no, no kids, but yeah. And then I wanted the horses to be there, but we couldn't, so we had to do the horsey pictures afterwards. So we got a chance to dress up again and I'm just going to show you. This is really boring.
Speaker 3:I love this oh all right Beautiful. Oh my gosh, so great. I just got a gray to bay. What are they?
Speaker 4:Gray's pop her sharon and the other ones. Actually, she's malting, she's a chocolate done Lucetano, oh, stunning.
Speaker 3:We need to do that. So we're in the midst of planning our wedding, but maybe we should wait 20 more years. And then we can do that too. I love the idea of the horse is big involved, that's awesome, yeah, no, it's good.
Speaker 1:So coming back to beta. So you guys are first and foremost a membership organization, right, yeah? And are your members? Are they individual people or are they companies that are members?
Speaker 4:The majority of them are companies or partnerships. We've got a few individuals who are sole traders or we have nutritional consultant, but they all run a business.
Speaker 1:Right, fantastic. And if I was a potential member and you're giving me your sales pitch, what is the sales pitch for the value that beta provides to these companies?
Speaker 4:Okay. So I always say, firstly, what do you want out of your trade association? Why are you joining? What do you want out of us? We are there to offer support, helping hand, advice when they need it. We have lots of benefits, which include a business advice helpline which provides legal help, taxation, health and safety and employment law that they get as part of their membership. That's an outsourced benefit, but that's really valued. They also join.
Speaker 4:I divide them into what I call the intangible and the tangible benefits. So the intangibles are the networking, the help and being able to ride on the back of our reputation. So if you're a if, particularly in the UK, and you go to a shop or you go on a website and you see the beta logo, you know that they've passed our criteria. They're a business that can be relied on to give you expert advice and quality service. So that's really the backbone of what we do. It's providing our members that reputation. I help them build that reputation.
Speaker 4:They also then get to take advantage of things like discounts. So we do discounted work with what we call member service providers, and that might be anyone from an insurance company giving discounts to a insurance, a credit card transaction. They get better rates if they're a member. They get discounts at the trade fair we own and run. They get free copies of Equestrian Trade News, which is our monthly trade magazine, and then they get the chance to take part in our marketing campaigns. So we run three marketing campaigns with the idea of driving the riding public into our members' shops to buy our members' products. And we do two Feed Fact fortnites, because we have so many feed companies, feed manufacturers and supplement manufacturers, and it is also the opportunity for us to give education and training both to the trade and the end user. And then we have a summer of safety that runs pretty much from the middle of June till the end of August and that is all around safety in and out of the saddle.
Speaker 3:Is that also promoting products that are safety focused as well, when you're doing that summer of safety?
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah. So hats, body protectors, safety boots, hivers, as well as yard safety, biosecurity, feed safety, horse safety, so it covers all of those areas and we run those through a series of lives and podcasts, our own little podcasts, and that's mainly social oriented. But then we also provide merchandise for our shops to actually do in-store promotions. We also said the more intangibles are also the lobbying role. So it's our role to ensure that when legislation is put into place it doesn't inhibit our businesses from operating and whether that be changes to the feed legislation or, like currently, changes to the medicines legislation, that might impact on our ability to sell certain products.
Speaker 4:So we have to be there negotiating on behalf of our members. As well as the research we do, so our members also gain free or reduced price copies of the research we undertake and then, in sort of more tangible, we offer a show sponsorship scheme to our retail members where they get the ability to sponsor local shows and up to a certain cash value. We then reimburse those vouchers when they're spent in their shops. So, yeah, there's a huge, rather good benefit. So I always say if you use your benefits right, we end up paying you to be a member.
Speaker 1:Right, that makes sense, that's a good tagline.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's a good tagline Good sales pitch. And so how many trade fairs and conventions do you typically put on in a year?
Speaker 4:Okay, so we do one big show, that's Beta International, and so that is why Beta in a way was set up in the first place way back in 1978, is that they didn't. There was no trade show in the industry here and there was something called Equitana in Germany, which wasn't, strictly speaking, a trade show. But that's why we were set up, because they wanted to have somebody to represent and run a show for them. So we did Beta International. We do a big feed conference and then we also do an annual conference with our AGM. So we do at least three a year.
Speaker 3:And so, with the large international conference that you have each year, is that primarily focused within Britain's companies, or do people outside of Britain typically attend, or should they think to attend that conference? And both.
Speaker 4:We have international visitors and exhibitors. So actually I'm really pleased. We've got an exhibit from Ukraine this year, which we're really pleased about. So Ukraine, germany I think we've got an Australian, we've got a couple of other Europeans. We're not as international as we might have been, say, 10 years ago thanks to Brexit, but we're building back up again. We've got a lot from India and China this year, a few from Pakistan, so I think we've got exhibitors from about 12, 15 countries, and then we usually get visitors from up to 20. Our membership itself I have members from 25 countries, so it tends to draw them in.
Speaker 4:And then alongside the trade fair oh, I forgot that other little thing business awards and gala dinner. So we also organize that, which actually we've nearly sold out. We're in a slightly different venue, so we used to sell around 4 to 500 tickets. This year we're limited to 300. When does that take place? That's on the Sunday night of the trade fair. So the trade fair runs the 10th and 11th of September, and the gala dinner and business awards. Thanks to the pandemic it's all been a bit out of kilter, but we're running that. With how many? Nine awards? Nine, 10 awards. In fact, we're calling them the beaters this year, because we're riding on the back of the Oscars, but don't tell them.
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Speaker 3:Well, since we're talking about the trade fair and Ada is taking place, hang on a second.
Speaker 1:Before we get off into that, I want to come back to her member services. You're going off into a tangent into the American market. Before we move on to that, I want to come back to what you were saying about the services that you provide your members. To sum that up, it sounds like you guys, beta, are a combination of the American Horse Council, as well as Ada, the American question and trade association. You guys are a combination of the two. Is that right?
Speaker 4:Yeah, pretty much. Ada was actually based on us. Oh right, they came to us and said what's our members in arts? I think Tom McGinnis from Horseware was one of the guys that helped set it up. In fact, one of my board members, or council members, used to sit on the board of Ada. I always looked at the American Horse Council for their insight and their research. In fact, we modeled our British Horse Council on the American Horse Council. That's another organisation that we have here. You're absolutely right, sam, it is that combination of the two.
Speaker 1:If you guys have also the British Horse Council, where do your roles and responsibilities overlap between tracking regulatory changes and policy changes?
Speaker 4:Okay, so the British Horse Council we're a member of, so I sit on the board, and that represents the whole broader cross-section of the equestrian industry. So we have somebody to cover the veterinary side from the British Equestrian Veterinary Association. We have the Equestrian Federation on there. We have the British Horse Society, which is the biggest membership body for riders in the country. They have over 100,000 members. Who else do we have? We have World Horse Welfare to represent the charity sector and we also have racing.
Speaker 4:We have represented from the British Horse Racing Board and so we are there with a direct link into government to discuss issues. So, for example, currently it's all about passporting and the inspection of horses as they're brought in from Europe and go out to Europe, and so whenever there's an issue on the council pertaining to trade, that's where we step in. Or if it's veterinary, that's where David from Beaver steps in. So that's where we have those clear roles and responsibilities. For example, we've got an issue with a weed that is increasingly growing in the countryside that can be noxious it's hemlock and we've seen a real increase in the growth of that. So my forage producers have come and said that's a real issue and it's a danger not only to equine but human health. Therefore, could we approach DEFRA, which I suppose is like the American, it's the agricultural department, to have it listed as a noxious weed? Right got you.
Speaker 1:So for your members. Then you mentioned at the very beginning, when you set the value that you give your members, that a lot of them really value the part that you outsource, which is legal advice etc. So essentially, am I right in then, assuming that, besides all the benefits that you give your members, the kind of purpose that you serve is that if you are an equestrian business and you have any unknowns or uncertainty about changes in the market and how those markets would affect you, yeah, you basically call beta and beta has got all the answers or you know at least has all the resources that can point them towards the answers etc. It's kind of that independent third party who's also up to date, who you can basically talk it out with.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean we're there. Yeah, if we don't know the answer, we'll either try and find an answer or tell you where to go to to get the answer. So somebody setting up a business this is always a dilemma because we try to be helpful but a lot of people viewers like as a public access point of information. We're not retreat association, so my members pay for my salary. So right, you know you've got that dilemma. How much do I help you when I've got the answers but you're not actually a member? So we we try to encourage them to become a member, but we're usually pretty free with our help, but we can. Then somebody wants to set up. We will say, ok, you need to go and talk to the VMD and the FSA, and so we tell them where to go to and who to talk to.
Speaker 1:Got you, got you, okay and then. So, outside of providing those members, you guys also commission independent reports for the industry.
Speaker 4:Yeah, just yeah, yeah yeah. National Equestrian Survey We've been doing it since 1995 every four years, and that gives us trend data about the size and scope and value of our industry. So then we can then go to government and say hey guys, we're not this little tiny, we niche market. The industry is worth nearly 8 billion pounds to the UK economy, so you know we're quite substantial.
Speaker 1:And that 8 billion pounds contribution to top your head. How is that kind of split up? What are the different parts of the market that make up that 8 billion?
Speaker 4:OK, so 8, 3, about 3 billion is racing, is related to racing not, not gambling, but it's more the cost of having resources and jockeys and so on. And then 5 billion is what I call the sport and leisure sector, and then we break it down to indirect and direct expenditure, and so we then in the data we break it down, so the direct expenditure is how much it costs us to keep our horses, so that part is nearly 4 billion. The other billion is related to indirect expenditure, like what we spend on our clothes, on our footwear, on the stuff that is as focused rather than horse focused.
Speaker 1:Gotcha Gotcha. It's constant conversation here in America, which is that people are very aware of racing and the public gets very much behind racing. It's really hard to get the public to be engaged in sport horse activities in America outside of a few big events each year. Considering that Britain has a culture of more people being engaged in sport horse activities leisurely, even if they're not a horse person themselves, does that mean that the sport horse market is bigger in the UK, based on numbers you said, and is that because of the fact that it's just a big market or is that because of the fact that the public do get quite involved in it?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think they do. I mean the US market is bigger than the UK market. The US market is enormous. You've got so many more horses than us. I mean the whole European market, including the UK, is about the same size as the US market, so you are truly large, I think. If you're talking about engagement in the equestrian, I'd say Ireland is really truly engaged. It sort of horses run through their very genetics. The UK we do have a high level of interest and I think it's not so much not just the riders but also that we rely on volunteers a lot to keep the sport going. And so when you look at the general interest, so there we reckon that of the total population there is some form of interest shown by about 40% of the population. Now some of that is in racing. About 25% maybe do watch horse racing or have a vague interest in horse racing, but then over 20% are interested in leisure sport in some way, shape or form, whether that's doing it, supporting it or maybe even watching it in some way, shape or form.
Speaker 1:Right gosh if you take the numbers that you've just quoted last and then you basically compare them to the American numbers although the American numbers are quantitatively bigger it's actually a pretty mirror image. Our racing market here is half the size of our sport market, which is about three times the size of our leisure market, and it sounds like your numbers are relatively the same, proportionately the same.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think we've got about 14, 15,000 horses in training here.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 4:So when you think, of that and we reckon, we estimate that equine population to be 720,000. So of that 720,000 horses, only 15,000 are actual race horses.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's interesting because it's one of those things that the public don't mean here. They see in the states, like, the public don't think about it very much because people just see racing and they assume that the majority of horses that are kept for athletic pursuits is for racing. But statistically there's a tiny fraction of the amount.
Speaker 4:And it's because they get the media coverage, don't they? So races on TV or the races on the radio here, thanks to the BBC's red button clip my horse, horse and country TV it is possible to stay current with horses on TV, even on local sport level, and so that's been a real plus. Whereas you know in the good old days that a lot of people were referred back to before I lived in the UK and we still do we still have badminton, horse trials on BBC, we usually have horse of the year show and we usually have the London International not horse of the year show London International and sometimes Burley. So there are some of those big events that are still broadcast on terrestrial TV, but not nearly, as you know, the big old show jumping days when Harvey Smith who's one of the older show jumpers that was everybody would watch on a Friday night or a Sunday night.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Do they fight over the streaming rights there too, so if they're able to get it on to TV there? So all these different types of events are taking place over there. Is it one where if, say, clip my horse has the rights, then agency can't also stream there, or is it more of an open market so everyone can have access?
Speaker 4:to that? I'm not so sure, but I think they do packages deals. So BBC will have a badminton package, even though badminton mind you, badminton have their own streaming service, same as Burley. So I think they do argue it out between clip my horse. And then they have highlights packages on TV.
Speaker 3:Right, gotcha, and is that one of those things, too, where the average person will go out to these? Question events that aren't racing here. Polo is popular, obviously the Kentucky Derby and the Triple Crown has made horse racing really popular but most people don't know about, say, a show jumping grand prix or a five star three day event. So that's something that's actively being, you know, trying to be promoted here. So yeah, how's it there?
Speaker 4:It's the same. You know, everybody has an interest in the Grand National or an Ascot and that's on TV. I suppose one of the biggest successes of equestrian sport here is the shopping villages and that's why a lot of people go. So you know badminton and Burley, the shopping village. You could easily go and just shop for two days and never even sell horse.
Speaker 3:Do they have only equestrian brands or do they have brands from all types?
Speaker 4:Really no, they have high streets. They have high streets, so they have a country living tent where you buy really pretty clothes and jewelry and fragrance and that sort of thing. You can buy just about everything you can buy a hot tub, you can buy a shed, you can buy a wood burner.
Speaker 1:Right, so it's basically a flea market with a horse show happening out the back.
Speaker 4:Very high quality Believe me.
Speaker 3:That's what I'm doing A justice.
Speaker 1:What do you call a high quality vendor village? Outdoors? I mean a market, I mean flea market, High quality flea market.
Speaker 4:Shopping village.
Speaker 1:I mean, they really are fantastic.
Speaker 4:It's. No, it really is. And you know, some of these guys don't just do the equestrian circuit, they do the lifestyle, and there's a big gardening show here called Chelsea or Chelsea Flower Show. Everybody's heard of that Well. So a lot of the guys who would do, you know, might have a stand at badminton or Burley, will also do Chelsea or Hampton Court or yeah. So there's a big show circuit here where people do the rounds.
Speaker 1:So now we talked about what beta does I want to come back to and I'll come back to the point about other brands being at this vendor village but I want to look at the role beta plays in the wider world. Jen asked the question before and made the point that ADA is happening right now in the United States. So, coming back to Jen's question is what is the relationship between beta and ADA, and am I right in thinking that you guys help them set that up?
Speaker 4:We didn't help them set them up, but I know some of our members who are very active in the US used us as a model for when they set ADA up and we used to have a bit more contact. We don't really have much contact today because I think yeah, I don't know why I think because we operate slightly differently. We're very engaged in what we do. So, no, and I'm not even certain now what ADA does apart from the show. I suppose ADA was very much the show, whereas the show is but one part of what we do.
Speaker 1:Yeah right.
Speaker 3:Do you have to be a member of beta to attend the trade fair?
Speaker 4:that you guys put on interesting, yeah, could, yeah.
Speaker 3:So if we won, you know, we were looking at going. Granted, we're about to embark on a really hectic travel schedule, but because it's happening this weekend and it's nearby in Dallas, so you know, take three hours tops getting there by car we were contemplating getting there, but you'd have to become a member, and I think we would be able to because we're still in the equestrian sphere. But it wasn't as easy as hey, there's this really significant event taking place. Come and register and come be part of it and learn and see it. It wasn't quite as simple.
Speaker 4:Yeah, no, to exhibit you don't have to be a member, you just pay less. And to visit we don't have an entry fee, but you do have to be a legitimate part of the equestrian trade. So you know, end users, it's like an end users paradise, but you've course you can't buy anything there. It's not like a consumer event. So we try to ensure that only the legitimate trade, so retail buyers or We've opened the doors more to influences this year and ambassadors and other professionals who are buying professionally, because one thing our exhibit is really or our retailers really dislike is seeing their customers walking around the show. So you know they're local riding school, their local riding club. That's not really the place for them. But yeah, no, is as a media company you would be able to attend beta.
Speaker 1:Right. So last time we chat you made the point that you guys have members from all over the world for beta and you made the point that a large reason for that is that there aren't that many Well established equestrian trade associations around the world. So you guys kind of fill that role for a lot of countries that don't have one. And you know, considering the size of the equestrian industry in America being 55 billion dollars direct and 121 billion indirect, and it being America and America has a trade association for everything, I would have thought that America's a trade association Would have been established decades ago and be a very mature entity. Do you have any idea why it's kind of been delayed in its formation?
Speaker 4:No, I Never really. I honestly I never really understood. I think it was only set up, oh gosh, 10 years ago. It was relatively recent and they tried to do interesting. There was another age, but it was in Australia and that that didn't work, because at the time in Australia the market was pretty much dominated by one franchise business, which was horse lands, and so they really had the majority of the retailers and they sort of were their own Association, and nowhere else in the world has there really been a trade association. So really a to and beta just about it. So I don't know. I think maybe because when we were set up we were lucky enough, thanks to our trade fair, to develop really good resources and then manage them and Build out the offering and establish the brand so that it is meaningful to the end user as well as the trade.
Speaker 1:Right. Do you have clients that come to you that are like we started in Europe? The majority of our business is in Europe, but we want to expand to the US market because it is one third of the global market. And have you noticed any patterns or Anything interesting about how European equestrian businesses think about the American market and how they assess it as an opportunity versus a risk?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think a lot of people desperately want to get into it because of its size. And that's sometimes a risk because we always say you know, the US market is not one market, it's 50, because every state has its own, especially in some of the product sectors like and feed. It's really complicated and so quite young companies always say we want to get into the American market and we'll say just think about your own market, makes certain you, you know, you've got a good domestic market. They maybe look at Europe and then go further afield because it's too easy to do too much too soon and that's why some of our bigger members they've. Actually the way they've got into the US market is by establishing offices there and so they get that base and then grow from there. Because it is and you know some companies they've only really managed to succeed by having that base in the States. It's interesting, it's a really difficult. Otherwise here you can quite successfully be a British company and export into Europe without necessarily having to have the office there. Same the other way, europeans coming into the UK.
Speaker 4:But I also suppose that's why, when we were looking at the export side, both for us and for some of our other members. That's where we started to do some of the consumer shows. So, certainly pre-pandemic, we did a lot more. Post-pandemic We've slowed down a bit, but we used to take groups of companies, of member companies, out to these other shows. So we go to Equitana in Germany, get it Equitana in Australia. We go to the Dubai International Horse Fair. We used to take groups to Aita, actually, and then we used to go to what was the Rolex Kentucky, which was one of my favorite shows in the world.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:So we used to take and have a big pavilion there as well, and that was to introduce people to the market with sort of holding their hands and giving them a bit of confidence to do that. And then we also take groups to Spogat, which is the show in Germany, and so by doing that we were helping them make contacts and giving them the chance to take those first steps a bit more Safely than if they you know, for some of them it's quite scary to get on a plane and take your product and set up stand in a foreign country.
Speaker 3:Yeah, for those that in America that are thinking about expanding overseas, are there any particular regions or Trade shows that you would recommend looking into? So, for example, I mean, there's gosh. There's so many different kinds of products here, I mean, as of course you're well aware. But if you are Someone who has been interested in eyeing those markets, what would you suggest between, like, yoga and equitana, where would be a good place for them to kind of look at?
Speaker 4:it depends where you're going. I tend to. I would say this would now come to be to international English speaking. Yeah, and the UK market Understands Americans. That's why we do get a lot of Americans come to us very fond members of some of the really nice Americans who came.
Speaker 4:Spoga is very much Continental and focus. If you wanted to really go for the German or the French market then yes, you'd go. The rest, really, spoga and Beta international and a eta, are the three only international trade shows. All of the others are what I call consumer shows with a touch of trade. So equitana, I would say, is brilliant for feed and supplements and for capital items, because none of the other trade shows. We try to and we do get quite a good number of feed, but Spoga never has a huge number of feeding supplements.
Speaker 4:A Quotana is great because you get interest from, you, get visited by the distributors, which is what they're looking for. But you also get really good feedback on your product from the end users. So it enables you to see where it fits in the market and and you know, there's little tons here. There's a key tartan, france. There is Fiat, a cavalli. In Italy You've got loads. In Germany You've got a really good one in Spain. So it depends where you're going and what you're doing. So if you provide, if you say supply product for Iberian horses, then you'd go to the Spanish show. So it's weighing it up there's. There's other shows. There used to be one in Russia, but that's sort of off the cards now depends what you've got and and what your aspiration whether you want to sell direct, whether you want to do B to C, whether you want to do B to B Right and it's all that information about.
Speaker 3:So, if you have a certain type of audience, different or type of focus, is All of that accessible on, say, the individual websites? Or would they be able to go to, say, beta, and then discover, okay, this type of conference, this type of market is the best place for me to experiment with.
Speaker 4:Not really, because it's so custom. That's where members, that's where we offer that personal service, so they speak to us. It's really difficult to put that down and writing plus that sort of information is one of the benefits of being a member of a trade Association. It gives you access to that expertise and that knowledge.
Speaker 1:You made a comment before that when you were advising British companies that wanted to move into the American markets to basically Secure their foothold in Britain and then go to Europe and then go to America. When we think about the equestrian market in Europe, we see a patchwork of different smaller countries with smaller economies, and inside every single country there is key stakeholders who have their policies, they have their politics, they have their business relationships, everything. So as an outsider who's like, well, I'm going to go into Europe, I've got to basically go in and fight into every single market, one country at a time. It seems a quite a daunting reality, but what you're saying is that you actually find that it's actually relatively easy to go into Europe for a British company, then to go into America.
Speaker 4:I think it depends on what you're selling, but the American market is such a big market you've still got to find somebody and the chances of finding one person to look after the whole of the US market is a real challenge is a real challenge. There are a few nationwide distributors. Or you try and go direct and use one of the buying groups that exist, or you target somebody like Dover, that you go for a key retailer, so you could do that on the continent. You could go to somebody like Kramer or Lirstau in Germany or one of the big chains in Germany, rifeisen who have lots and lots of stores. So, yeah, you're right, you've got to potentially do I would mean 25 rather than one, but I know and I've seen the effort it has taken people to find one in the States, which is the real challenge, and they can never find one. They always have to, but, like Europe, find more than one. And I'm generalising because it really does depend on the product.
Speaker 1:Sure, but does that imply that the distribution infrastructure in Europe, despite the fact that it is more fragmented from country to country, in many ways is more professionalised and more mature? That just makes the whole process a lot more seamless than in the US.
Speaker 4:I don't know. I think it's because every country maybe has a leading brand or a leading distributor and then that tends to become the focus, or there's a major retailer so you can chip at it a bit easier than you might be at. You know you can chip away at it so you can tick them off. And I've got members who you know they've got a distributor in France, tic. They've got a really good distributor in Holland, tic. They've found a really good retail customer in Germany, tic. So they're eating into these markets sort of in a more bite-size way than America is just such a daunting prospect for so many. You know where do you start.
Speaker 1:It's interesting in the sense of like so for us Americans, you know, and we have lots of friends who have started their own Us Americans.
Speaker 1:Us Americans. Yes, we have lots of friends here who have started, like you know, their own boutique equestrian brands and products and it's interesting. It is just a mindset, like because you're right, like they all face the same problem, which is how do you allocate your time and resources to get mass distribution? And it's hard because it is such a big market. But because they just live here and that's just their reality, they don't find it daunting, they just find it the way you do things.
Speaker 3:Well, and there's just certain hubs and there's obviously big shows, so you kind of know where to focus your attention around.
Speaker 4:Yeah, because I mean shows in America. You've got the equine affairs, and then you've got the various, you've got, you know, wellington, and you've got the other centers, tryon, but then yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3:Thermal Akin, you know you can go to Virginia. So it's depending on what you're selling. It's kind of easy to at least be like OK, I'm going to focus on these regions and these shows and maybe expand from there.
Speaker 4:But you're there as well, so it's easier for you to access them rather than having to fly over the pond every time you want to do one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so OK. So the obvious question that comes at the back of this is so how has this all changed, with people having more online stores direct to consumer rather than doing distribution deals with brick and mortar distributors?
Speaker 4:It's simplified, it's made it as you said. Your friends have set up businesses. We've seen a lot more small businesses set up with their own brands. So especially Pandemic, it's sort of the base layer and tights market loads of peril. So lots of riding tights, base layers. We've seen a real flood of new clothing brands and that's happened because they can source offshore, they can run online, they can go to the shows and some of them are incredibly professional and brilliant looking and they've built their brands and if it hadn't been for online in social media, they wouldn't have been able to get those that brand profile. So we've seen a lot more smaller, independent type companies set up and run that would have been the case in the past.
Speaker 1:Have you noticed how that's affecting the market in any sense, and I mean that by in the sense of? Are there previously established major distributors who are upset with this change in status quo? Or has it made your guys job easier or more difficult as beta, because you now there's all this business and in the industry starting to happen that kind of exists out of the, that is taking place outside of the existing infrastructure?
Speaker 4:I think no. I think it's made some of the established brands reassess what they're doing and maybe update them. I think some of the older, more traditional brands have maybe suffered if they haven't continued to develop and evolve, but and it's maybe split some of the expenditure over a number of different brands, whereas they would have gone mainstream. It has impacted upon the way certain companies trade. So a big company that used to wholesale retailers basically changed their entire model and became direct to consumer a few years ago, thanks to and that was totally you know, if we hadn't had online now, that wouldn't have been able to happen, and I think it's maybe made a lot of companies become much better in their resilience and their ability to have their product on multi platforms.
Speaker 4:So when I was, I did a survey of our members a few months ago and I asked it was retailers, what platforms do you use to sell? 20 years ago it would have been probably 90%, maybe 80% shop, 20%, mail order. And then we moved and when I looked at the results, there were 13 different models and combinations from shop to shop and online. Shop online and social media, shop online and marketplace like Amazon. Pure marketplace, pure online, pure social platforms, trade stands, personal visits. It's just incredible. Just the range of platforms now to sell on is like nothing else we've ever seen.
Speaker 1:Yeah right, and so you've basically found that most of the large incumbents have essentially gracefully embraced the change and keeping up with the times, as opposed to kind of fighting it and trying to lock in distribution deals with tax stores and all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 4:I think it's almost the other way around and that there are a lot of the suppliers have embraced the digital platforms. Some of the retailers do not like that. So when a couple of really significant brands said they were going to start selling direct, that has not gone down well with the text stores, with the retail. If they've always done it, then it's sort of accepted. There are some big brands like Jools, who started on the show circuit as a retailer and then wholesale. But some of the other brands where they've started to retail or tried to have a retail model, a lot of the retailers, the merchants, aren't that happy. But from the trade side to from the manufacturer's side, the reason they do that is that they produce a really wide range of product and they want the end consumer to see that whole range and it's really unusual for one retailer to have that whole range.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So they kind of yeah, they're kind of in a rock and hard place. It's like we don't want to disrupt your model and we want to respect you, but unless you're willing to give half the store to our one brand, there's nothing we can do. Our hands are tied.
Speaker 3:Have you noticed any tax shops going out of business? Or even maybe, in addition to the, you know there are more tax stores in the area than there had before?
Speaker 4:I mean we've lost a few big ones. There was a really big online store that went down, but that was perhaps because they over committed themselves. So, yeah, we have seen some and we've seen some big retail stores gone, but they seem to be for other reasons, connected with, maybe, the operation of the company rather than the actual market of the company. So, yeah, we've seen a lot of movement. We used to have a big agricultural wholesale chain and that's that fell over, probably about 10 years ago. So, yeah, there has been a lot of movement in the market and you always get that concern, the big talk like 20 years ago, well, what we called bedroom sellers, where they'd literally have a room in their house that they'd sell out of.
Speaker 4:The latest one is auction, so you'll get somebody.
Speaker 1:In America they call that an entrepreneur not a bedroom seller.
Speaker 4:Well, the good ones become bigger. But the problem for the ones that don't do it professionally is that they have no proper overheads. You know they don't have any overheads so they can undercut everyone else. They don't charge real retail pricing and they just ask. And what it does is it max up the market for the rest of them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, interesting, right. Okay, so then you know we've been talking for an hour now. So the one, I suppose the last, unless there's one. Do you have any questions you want to ask before I ask the final one? Yeah, I'm gonna go back to the main chain.
Speaker 3:Tommy Hilfiger. Yeah, I was a question with us. Yeah, Because I mean, from seeing everything here, especially with Jessica Springsteen being their writing ambassador, it's just been a really cool thing to witness, you know, a mainstream brand partnering up with a world-renowned writer and also a celebrity, and then kind of what that's done and the example that that can set for other brands. So I guess yeah, I don't know if your question is kind of diffused, but I would just love to hear more about that, since it seems like you've been able to see firsthand what that has done and how it's impacted the economy there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and if I can add on top of that, if you can answer that in the wider context of the question of, as the British Trade Association, have you found increasingly that more brands that historically haven't been targeting the equestrian industry and now starting to view the equestrian industry as a market and, if so, have they approached you or they approached people that you know in the industry about how they could position themselves to sell their products to the equestrian industry?
Speaker 4:Yeah, not so much, it's really interesting. So Tommy Hilfiger is probably the one that springs to mind, because it is so non-horsy that they're going into Ralph Louren's obviously the other one. But what we have seen is major retailers show an interest in expanding into equestrian, so if not necessarily with their own brand, but with an interest in creating a brand. And so the big thing here a few years ago, where the big leading supermarkets suddenly putting equestrian into the aisles, Now really radical.
Speaker 4:So like a Walmart, but it's not a good comparison. I'm not great on American supermarkets because I haven't been there for a few years, so like public.
Speaker 1:You can tell. You can tell what state someone's from in America by what they refer to as the supermarket brand. Oh really, yeah. Yeah, it's like in Australia we have. We have like three supermarket chains the whole country. Here in America, depending on what state you're in, there's one dominant chain that people refer to as the best thing ever.
Speaker 3:I mean we love Trader Joe's. Publix is beloved.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Trader Joe's is brilliant. Yeah, the back.
Speaker 4:Yeah, okay, so Trader Joe's or, in Australia, maybe Woolworth's or yeah, Willys and Coles.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly Willys and Coles.
Speaker 4:So Tesco is like one of the big three here Tesco, sainsbury's, yeah, and then we'll try to the bit market. So Tesco added an equestrian into their aisles. Huge for Rory. People got very upset about it. How come? Why do they get upset? Exactly because the small tech shop suddenly thought how are we going to compete with this multi million?
Speaker 1:Oh the equestrians got upset. I thought you meant the public got upset.
Speaker 4:No, no, no, we were actually. We kept saying, hang on, guys, this is great because they're only doing a really small range. And isn't it great that actually somebody walking in who's never thought of riding will see riding equipment in the aisle and suddenly think it's affordable?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're creating customers that will then go to the tax door.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, what were they selling in the grocery?
Speaker 4:stores so they were selling. I know the lady who did all the buying for them. Funnily enough, they did riding hats, which I thought was quite bold, but they did, like Jodhpiz boots, the basic it Jodhpiz boots, gloves, head collars, brushes and A small rider, a small one, range of one, one item riding hat. So it was a nice, really good. The sort of thing was if you were gonna send your kid off to a riding school, what do they need?
Speaker 1:Yeah, last minute, what did the kid forget? What did the kid forget? That we need to pick up in the car on the way. Yeah, let's go, yeah.
Speaker 4:So we had. So we had Tesco doing it. We had a big German chain called Aldi doing it. Yeah, the Aldi is here too.
Speaker 3:Yeah, such a wild concept to imagine Aldi having these products in there. I just I think people will be confused here.
Speaker 4:We used to supply sheepskins to Aldi and my sheepskin days, and they were unlimited offer, so you put them in, they were in for a week and then you get them out, and so the other ones is also and I think this is a real, it is a good move is Is that the outdoor stores now include equestrian in their range. We've got a big outdoor chain here called go outdoors, and so equestrian equipment sits alongside cycling, mountain climbing, walking hiking.
Speaker 1:When did that happen, and have they kept this, these Departments, or are they removed it because it didn't work?
Speaker 4:No, no, some of them go up and down, so go outdoors, did it not very well? They then partnered with a equestrian retailer and they're doing it a lot better. A decathlon, they do it, they have their own range. And then sports direct, which is a big general sporting store. They actually bought one of the. They bought Robinsons, which used to be the male order catalog here, and so they put shop and shops. So most of them do quite well. Pets at home bought A big male order company.
Speaker 4:That didn't really work because they didn't understand that equestrian people are not like cat and dog people, yeah, and they don't necessarily always sit the same together. So that's where there has been movement the, the big retailers showing an interest in the question. In terms of mainstream brands, you know we have some like John Whitaker International that is based on a rider, but I think because of the fashion element that we get now increasingly in riding gear, that's why the Tommy Hilfiger's I think of Shannon interest. Here it's positioned very, very high market Right. So that's gonna be interesting and it's only just come in here. It's been in Europe for a bit longer. They were equitana this year so that was interesting. So they are, but it's such a competitive market out there, such a competitive market.
Speaker 1:So you've never had, and the example that we always give is Nike and Nike like Lulu lemon and Lulu lemon. Maybe it's a leisure brands or just athletic brands and that's the example that we always give, because so many people wear them when riding anyway, like it's, like it's like it's their go-to easy going, training, not trying to dress up and be fancy, happy to get it dirty, comfortable, breeze, well in the heat, sort of attire, and it just kind of amazes us that it Because it's it's it's such a clean market to target to.
Speaker 4:I think maybe because a lot of the smaller brands are using that same Technology and the products they're producing. So right, I see I I wouldn't have occurred to me the finicky To come into the equestria market. That you're right, they easily could because of the type of fabrics they use. But I think here we see so many equestrian brands who are using that technology and have strong equestrian brands. It depends aside, you know, I'm if I'm one of those people that I compartmentalize my sporting clothing and so I have walking or kiking clothing which actually will be perfect for riding, but because in my mind they're for that sporting activity, I'd never think of putting them near the horses.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, or even just hats and things like that that are branded like at Nike, for example. I mean they've got all different kinds of Apparel types that are for the golf enthusiast or the baseball enthusiast, so why not just include, even if it's not necessarily to go and actually riding, but at least to be a fan of, so they could easily come out with that?
Speaker 4:branch? Yeah, interesting as well, because Adidas is one. So when we go to the Olympics, adidas kits out the team. And a problem, because the problem is they don't do jobs, they don't do breaches, so all right, they have to sort happens in that circumstance? Yeah, so they have to go to an equestrian brand. Who's the team's supplier? I think it's toggy, and so they supply the team, and same with riding jackets.
Speaker 3:Right interesting and so Tommy's only Accessible in the UK. Is that right? Or in Europe?
Speaker 4:No, it's in Europe as well. Okay, good.
Speaker 3:They have an American rider and Everyone in America is seeing it and they want to buy it, because I'd have to go on the website, but it's not something that's just everywhere. I mean I actually I need to go to Dover today, so I'll check, but last time I was there, which was a few months ago, it's not like they've taken up a segment of the Dover salary, whereas I mean they're just such, I feel like if they were there or had some kind of pop-up or something that many people would Be excited to buy. That.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think they are. I think they have limit. They're trying to keep it. I think people want to buy it in terms of not making it that easily accessible. Well, they had a big shop at Equitana, but I just did some mystery shopping for one of our awards. We actually do mystery shopping, oh.
Speaker 3:Was that fun.
Speaker 4:I don't do. The most of them know me, so I Know, but he knew. But we went to one and I knew that the owner, who knew me, wouldn't be there, so I sneaked in to have a look around and that was really good because I think you know, quite often I didn't go into enough tech shops because I don't have time. But it was great to see the range and it was Just so impressive. Some of the brands, the quality was fantastic, but but it's and I think that's the thing that makes it perhaps a less obvious choice for the Mainstream leisure brands is because the rider is service so well with equestrian brands, whether that be, you know, like the one, one of them.
Speaker 4:I mean, you still have a lot of area here, hugely huge. The popular. I'm wearing them today, they are my, yeah, but you've got some of the the newer one now, newer, not so new the mirror. They are sort of becoming the benchmark for a lot of people. So you've got a lot of really good brands out there that think about design and quality and the colour thing that the matchy-matchy you know, the saddle cloth, matching the bandages, matching the top it does. Yeah, I think it's unusual because in Tennis, you've got your tennis racket in you, and in riding you've got what you put on the horse and what you put on you. So you sort of supplying two markets.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which is which is a huge reason why I think for a large company it would be a goldmine of an opportunity, right? So just one last thing. I just want to clarify one thing before we let you go, because we've had you now for an hour is Coming back to the part you were saying about the large grocery stores getting into the business of Display a large real Taylor's doing equestrian stuff. Did that all happen around the same time and do you know the origin of how they all kind of made that decision together to get into the equestrian space? Or is that just a coincidence?
Speaker 4:I I don't believe in coincidence. I think I Think that was probably however they found out it was. It was a bit maybe Tess go so what Aldi were doing. I think it was quite a few years ago, so we are talking about maybe 10, 15 years ago when it first happened.
Speaker 4:Right and, dare I say it, I think it was because at the time they came to our trade fair and they, you know, it looks a very wealthy market and people have this concept that you have to be rich and privileged to ride and you don't. You know, we know from the data we collect that actually middle working class, to put it in old-fashioned terms, actually are the biggest section of riders because they work to ride.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Money on their horses skinny wallets at horses.
Speaker 4:Exactly, but so I think it was looking at. They looked at the figures, they looked I think they did, and I know they looked at some of our reports and Said, gosh, it's x billion pounds, we want to chunk of that. I think what they forgot was that You've got to understand the market. It's not just and, and they thought in supermarket terms and skews and in stock turn, and they forgot that. You know, for a good request to end retailer, they have to have not only width but depth of range. And, yeah, they weren't prepared to do that and they didn't get the turnover you know per square. They work on turnover per square meter of shelf.
Speaker 1:Are you implying that a lot of them have dropped that part of the store? Yeah, right, interesting, okay. Yeah, the reason I'm hopping on about it is because it proves exactly what we talk about all the time, which is, if you're thinking strategically for a large company and you're looking at the market and you're looking at the market data, it's very obvious that it's a very good market to go after. But then you know, it also proves the other counterpoint, which is that there are idiosyncrasies to this market, that if you don't get it right, then you could end up going down a path and then realize it Doesn't work out for whatever reason, because you're not attuned enough to the market, which just opposed, in many ways creates the perfect opportunity for the large companies that are willing to invest into it right to succeed, yeah, and if they don't, it provides a lot of opportunity in the market for all the smaller brands to flourish.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah. And then you've got that tipping point, don't you? Where you're, you're an up-and-coming brand, then you've got to make the decision with you're gonna get bigger. And that's when the difficult decisions, because then it comes into working capital and yeah, so is that that's the tipping point. Where we often see broke sort of people going is that they can't make that leap. But yeah and you've got to understand the market and take time to understand the market.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah. Okay, well, thank you very much for your time today, claire.
Speaker 4:You're very welcome being lovely to speak to us. It's been lovely to.
Speaker 1:I mean you're in a very fortunate position that you know. For a long period of time You've been sitting at the top of the market from a commercial perspective, viewing the patterns and the trends, and it's been really great to Dehear, to basically Prove and disprove our assumptions. You know that we will then take forward as we learn more.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and so how can people find you and learn more about Peter?
Speaker 4:Okay, they probably easiest to go to our website, which is beta dash UK org. And then we're on Facebook as Beta equestrian and on Instagram is beta underscore equestrian, and we've also got a YouTube channel.
Speaker 3:Okay, and so anyone that is selling to or participating in the equestrian industry can become a member of beta.
Speaker 4:They can, and if they want to find more about our trade show, that's beta dash intcom.
Speaker 3:And so that's happening in a few weeks, then September 10th and 11th of September.
Speaker 1:Fantastic. Well, you must be at the crunch point then yeah, it's busy.
Speaker 4:And then if anybody wants to catch up on news about the market, if they go to equestrian trade news Dot com, I think, or dot co dot UK they can sign up for weekly e-news and get latest news from the UK and International markets.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna do that Fantastic thank you so much, claire.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Thank you so much for listening to the latest episode of the Pegasus podcast. As you heard from our mid-roll, we are also releasing an equestrian event management software platform. Now it's easier than ever to host, sign up and sponsor for any equestrian event in the world, thanks to all the features of the Pegasus app. To sign up, go to our homepage at wwwthepegasusapp. That is wwwthepegasusapp. That is wwwthepegasusapp. That is wwwthepegasusapp. See you next time.