Pegasus Podcast
@thepegasusapp https://www.thepegasus.app/🐴 Conversations with the movers and shakers of the global equestrian industry. Hosted by Pegasus founders Sam Baynes and Jen Tankel.
Pegasus Podcast
She Is the Youngest U.S. Eventer in Olympic History with Jill Henneberg
Olympian Jill Henneberg, the youngest athlete to ever represent the United States in Eventing, discusses the state of the equestrian industry as well as the impact of the World Equestrian Center in Ocala, Florida, where she resides.
The Pegasus Team sat down with Team Silver Medal Olympian Jill Henneberg who not only bought her future Olympic horse for $600 when Jill was a teenager, but was was also on the It was the 1996 Summer Olympics in Atlanta, together with Karen O'Connor, David O'Connor, and Bruce Davidson.
Jill is not only a decorated rider and trainer, but also a successful real estate agent in Ocala, Florida.
In this episode, we discuss:
- Jill’s journey of buying her thoroughbred mare, Nirvana, for $600 at age 13 and eventually taking her to the Olympics;
- Candid insights on sponsorship and affordability challenges in the sport;
- Why mainstream brands should get into equestrian sports; and
- The value of hard work and experience for riders aspiring to top-tier success.
As a real estate savant with her finger on the pulse of Ocala’s changing landscape, we also jump through how the World Equestrian Center has impacted property values and the local community.
🐴 This episode is brought to you by Pegasus, the first modern event management system that makes it easy to host and run equestrian events. Sign up for early access at www.thepegasus.app.
Be sure to follow Pegasus on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, TikTok and subscribe to The Oxer, the #1 weekly newsletter for global equestrian industry happenings. 🗞️
And I don't think that talent is always what wins at the end of the day. I think hard work will always be talent, but talent and hard work will beat everything.
Speaker 2:Hi everyone, my name is Noah Levy and I'm the producer of our Pegasus podcast, hosted by our founders Sam Baines and Jen Tangle. On today's show, we are hosting Jill Hennever, who is literally the youngest eventer to ever represent the United States in Olympic history. Jill has had a seasoned career not only as an eventer, but also as a trainer for multiple decades and subsequently a successful real estate agent in the heart of horse country, Florida. I don't have to tell you that you don't want to miss this episode. Keep your ears out and your heels down. All right, let's get into it.
Speaker 3:I'm pumped to have Jill here. So thanks for joining us. I'm going to do a very quick and dirty intro and then you obviously go into the full thing. But you have such an interesting background because you were obviously in the 1996 Olympics with the O'Connor's and Bruce and this is something I need you to verify because I wasn't sure. If this is right, you're obviously incredibly young. You're 21. When you went to the Olympics, were you the youngest Olympian on that team or were you the youngest Olympian in eventing?
Speaker 1:Still to this day.
Speaker 4:So the youngest person to make the Olympic team in eventing in US history.
Speaker 3:Yes, that's sick, yeah. So obviously I want to talk a lot about that. But now I know you're in Ocala, you're doing some badass real estate stuff there and crushing the market and I know it's booming, so definitely want to talk a lot about what's happening there and all the things that have changed down in that area. As I was my quick and dirty intro, do you want to go on and elaborate who you are and what's going on?
Speaker 1:I am a native of New Jersey Hopefully nobody holds that against me. I just sort of grew up loving horses and bought my first horse when I was 13 for 600 bucks and took her from never competing all the way through the Olympic Games. She actually lived until she was 35 years old just shy of 35. So long life for her and I kept her her entire life. And so after I sort of had my fun and run of competing and I competed several horses through the top level, I went onto the coaching side of things and had quite a big program up in Georgia and coached a lot of young riders and had a lot of riders of the year for the USCA and top 10 riders.
Speaker 1:I just sort of decided that it was time to. I wanted to have some roots and not necessarily be on the road all the time at a horse show, and so I decided that real estate was sort of where I wanted to go with things, and what better place for me than Ocala? I had been coming here for many, many years for the Winter Show Circuit, so I knew a lot of people. I knew the area very well. I have designed several big horse properties throughout my career for other people, and so this just made sense to me. It just made sense to come down here, get into real estate and focus on high end luxury real estate and horse properties.
Speaker 4:Fantastic. So, going back to the beginning, considering that you were in the Olympics at 21 and you only started at 13, which, for someone who's in the Olympics by 21, to me as an outsider, that sounds like a late start. I mean, it sounds like if you make it at 21, you probably start over and you will five. What was the differentiator? I mean, besides the fact that you obviously had a natural talent for it, if you bought a pony for $1300 and you took that horse all the way through, like how were you able to increase your skill set so quickly in only what was that like eight years?
Speaker 1:It's funny because I thought about that more and more sort of late and I don't know why, but never sort of dawned on me that it was sort of a short period of time to be riding and go to the Olympic games. I was a very good student of the sport and I was as motivated as motivated gets. I mean, I used to ride my bike after school. I think I did it for four years. Every day after school I rode my bike to the barn 10 miles. What happened was I got this bright idea one day to ride my bike to the barn. Right, I thought, well, this will be cool, I'm going to ride my bike to the barn.
Speaker 1:My mother worked in Trenton, New Jersey, which was about a half an hour past the barn. She literally passed the barn on her way home from work. So once I did that once or twice and she was like she would pick me up from the barn, she just was like well, this is a brilliant idea, I'll just get a bike rack and I'll pick you up on my way home from work. So then she didn't have to drive 20 minutes past the barn to go home. To pick me up, drive 20 minutes back to the barn, either sit there and wait for me or do the back and forth thing. So it just became if I wanted to ride my horse during the week, that was what I had to do.
Speaker 3:New Jersey. Especially in the winter, that can be a pretty brutal weather.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm sure there were times that I didn't do it, when it was two feet of snow or something like that.
Speaker 4:But generally speaking but.
Speaker 1:I mean commitment.
Speaker 4:Yeah, Generally speaking, you put, you mean you would put it.
Speaker 1:And you think about it. You know, I mean back when I was doing that, I didn't have a penny on me, I didn't have any ID, I didn't, there was no such thing, nobody wore bike helmets. I didn't have a cell phone.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it was a good old days.
Speaker 1:It was a good old days, you know where you just were like listen, I'm either going to get there, I'm going to die.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and if I go missing along the way, you'll find out tomorrow probably.
Speaker 3:This was Nirvana, right, your old horse, Nirvana. Yes, so you said you bought it for 600 bucks. Where did you get it from? Did you already see the towel in her?
Speaker 1:I mean, I was just a kid, I wanted something with four legs and a tail, you know, and I had just come across her at a local tax shop. There was like a little advertisement for her and I went out and looked at her and the lady was sort of in a financial hardship and said you know, I really need to have her out of this barn by the end of the month. And I think she was advertised for like 2000 bucks or something. And she said you know, I need 600 bucks to pay the board if you're willing to buy her. And so I did.
Speaker 3:Could you see that she was destined for great things, and did you also have the goal and plan in mind to eventually one day go and be a Olympic?
Speaker 1:I had been riding for about two years. I think I started actually riding when I was 11, but I took your typical sort of once a week lessons or something like that. Like I was definitely not in a position to necessarily assess whether she was great or bad. I was very much of the mindset that I didn't have a negative thought about it. I had a thought of I'm going to make this horse great. In fact, my first instructor that I had, I think I was going novice on the mare and the first instructor I had said I don't really know if she'll go training level. She's kind of small and I mean I just don't know if she's really going to be like a horse for you to move up from novice on. And the next day I called another instructor and I went to my current instructor and thanked her very much for everything but that I was going to move on.
Speaker 4:Really so you were very much of the mindset of like no, I'm going to take this to a higher level. And even though you didn't have the experience or wisdom to know whether your trainer was right or wrong, you were like no, I'm just going to surround myself with the right team. That's going to get me where I want to go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, even though I didn't necessarily have the experience, in my gut I was like, well, you're basically telling me to give up, this is the end of the road, and I just didn't agree with that.
Speaker 3:What was it like going to the Olympics? I know it's a loaded question, but I imagine you are probably at your most intense training period. But do you look back on that fondly, and was it some of the best times? Was it some of the most stressful times? What was that whole part of your life like?
Speaker 1:I mean a lot of. It's kind of a blur. I remember sitting there at the final selection trial, right, and there were 21 people on the shortlist that year because the games were in the US. So they figured well, why not have a massive shortlist? Because it basically doesn't cost them a ton of money, you're not shipping horses overseas and whatnot. So there were 21 of us. It was at the old Bucart farm in Georgia and they were announcing the team, the individuals and the alternates and I just remember hearing my name and I literally heard. I mean I would imagine it's what it feels like to realize that you've won the lottery, where literally everything else goes blank In my mind. I just was like holy crap, I just made the Olympic team.
Speaker 3:Yeah, this like out of body experience.
Speaker 1:Totally out of body experience and just thinking like, is this like?
Speaker 3:for real. I don't know enough about at that stage, like the picking process, but is it one where you've had to compete and place a certain amount of like first, second, third or whatever across a year or two years? How do you basically get to that qualifier stage and then how do they ultimately decide who's going to be on the team?
Speaker 1:Well, I mean I would say that you're so. They look for consistency for sure, especially on a team. That on a team they're not always going to look for somebody who is necessarily winning everything, but they're going to look for the consistency. I mean, that's the interesting thing about picking a team right. Like you, you're going to have some people that are really consistent, whose horses happen to be like extraordinary on the flat, so they win a lot more events, and then you're going to have people that maybe they're in the top 10, but they're not necessarily always sort of winning because their dressage is a little bit lacking. So it's sort of a combination. They try to combine the two when they're, when they're picking teams. But picking the person that's sort of in the top 10, that has a really consistent record, as opposed to somebody who like wins every time out except for when they get eliminated, is sort of better.
Speaker 1:So, basically, when it comes to eventing right because soundness is such a big deal, really sort of what you've done the previous year it's helpful, but it's not. There will be an Olympic year where you're like holy crap, like everybody from last year is like nobody's on the team this year. So it would be really based off of the big major FBI competitions in the spring, right Like your badminton, your Kentucky, the big five stars in the spring that will get the most and then they'll formulate a shortlist off of those, off of your spring, and then the shortlist will either ship overseas or, you know, our shortlist stayed here and then they'll have selection trials on that. I think now they're basically doing like teams and alternates ship over. I don't even know that they have like a huge shortlist now, just sort of teams and alternates and whatnot that all ship over. I mean they check the soundness on these sources every day.
Speaker 4:So going back then to the point of like how you managed to get there in eight years, considering, as you said, even to today, like the Olympic team is based off the last 12 months because of the soundness is such a big component of it, considering that you took your horse all the way through, that would infer to me that I don't want to say luck, because I know that's like doesn't that doesn't take into account, like, your skill and your training and your preparation. But is there an element of luck that managed you to get there with one horse the whole way through, which meant that by the time you got to selection you had arguably the longest period of time with one horse. So your relationship with that horse was so solid that you guys were about to perform at a level that others who were going for selection didn't have that consistency or that time together.
Speaker 1:Listen, there was a lot. Yes, I mean luck plays into a lot of it. Timing is everything, especially in the sport of eventing. For instance, I was actually first alternate for the world championships two years before, at 18. And I think they were, just like you know, this kid's way too young for all that. And then I was on the short list for the Pan American Games the year before the Olympics. But my mare actually fractured her splint bone that year and so I had to pull myself off of the list for that. So, just sort of going back to a little bit of as far as the year before, I didn't really compete much the year before the Olympics because she was sidelined, so I sort of had to come out really strong in the spring of 96.
Speaker 3:Yes, I guess I was just looking at good luck. There's a lot of bad luck. That happens too with horses. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:So, like my yes, I mean I feel. I feel like I mean, trust me. The year before I was feeling pretty sorry for myself, you know I was like, oh well, that's just crap luck and I can't believe I. You know, I mean when you're that young and you have to make a phone call to you know somebody at the United States equestrian team and tell them you have to pull yourself off of the list. You know, perhaps that injury happened because something else would have happened that year and so she was fine for the 96 season.
Speaker 4:Yeah, absolutely so, okay, so well, if you didn't have the perfectly lucky career then or lead up, I should say you said at the start that you were a student of the sport, so how did that come into play in terms of getting you to that level of success at such a young age? And then, on top of that, how did the rest of the people in the team respond to you being so young and making the team?
Speaker 1:when I should have been studying in school. I was studying everything that I could get my hands on. I was a person that if I was struggling with a movement in the dressage say I was struggling with a leg yield I would buy whatever I needed to buy. There was no internet then, but I would look up articles and magazines and try to really perfect that, or I would. I was very outspoken with my coaches. That was probably their biggest nightmare student. Even though I was a good student, I was hey. So this is what I want to work on today. This is what I struggle with. I mean, you have to understand, I was a green rider riding a three year old off the track, wiry little thoroughbred mare that didn't know anything either. It's fairly amazing that that sort of things happened.
Speaker 3:I imagine now most trainers probably don't have their students come to them and tell them hey, this is where I'm looking to improve. Like, let's dedicate this lesson to that. I wonder if they're as gritty these days as they were back then, when you were riding and training them. I mean no.
Speaker 1:I wouldn't. I wouldn't think so. I mean, having been a coach, I would say no. But I will say, like, as a coach, one thing that I was adamant about with my students is all of my students. They could come off a cross country course having gone clean under the time and win the event, and they knew which jumps they didn't balance to, like they could pick their cross country apart. They didn't just come back and go. That was amazing. I mean, sometimes they did and fair enough, we all. Sometimes we have like just runs that are incredible, but typically when you're jumping 27 jumps at high speed, you're going to have one or two that are a little bit like oh, I'm so glad I got away with that. And you know, and I was always really proud that they knew what I felt like I did my job as a coach because they knew what they had done wrong and so they knew how to fix it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they were able to reflect on their own ride, so that means that you were successful to instill that in them to then go back and be able to critique as objectively as you can on their own riding and how they're going to improve.
Speaker 1:And as far as my teammates go, they were all really, really good, they were all really supportive. They did buy me a child's t shirt and they made me wear it around and it was like three times too small for me. And actually at the annual meeting that year we had bought Mark Phillips a beautiful coffee table that was a shadow box, and so my rookie rider t shirt lives in that.
Speaker 3:That's really cool.
Speaker 1:Somewhere, somewhere, probably in England, I don't know where. I don't know where the table is, but that was our present to him, so he has my rookie rider t shirt.
Speaker 3:That's incredible. You could still wear it now as a crop top.
Speaker 4:So now that so let's get past your career, as in the Olympics, you go into being a trainer and over the course of the last, what is it? 15, 20 years of being a trainer? How long were you a trainer before you decided to hang up the spurs?
Speaker 3:She hasn't fully hung them up yet. People keep calling her.
Speaker 1:People keep calling me yes, I mean I did so.
Speaker 1:I always had to make a living right and I was importing horses quite a lot and unfortunately, when you have to sort of make a living, nine times out of 10, you sell the good ones.
Speaker 1:And so, as I sort of started selling them, I was bringing them over and I was competing them and then they would get sold and I'd get a new batch in. I'd compete them and they'd get sold and I started coaching along the way and there was just a part of me that was I found myself getting more excited about my students coming through the Finnish flags and their reaction and celebrating them and their successes. I found myself enjoying that more than myself doing it, and so I am a person that I do not enjoy being average at anything, and so I did not feel like I could coach and ride and be the best at both. Since I was enjoying the coaching more, I just decided well, I'll coach, but I always I mean I was a person I sat on my student sources at least once a week, not so much to train them for them, but to get an idea of how well they were doing with what I was telling them to do. It was a way to gauge how much my coach was getting through to them.
Speaker 4:Right that makes sense, yeah right, so one of the things that we talk about a lot and we just recorded a podcast the other day where we talked about this just amongst our team at nauseam is that there is an issue in the equestrian industry, in the equestrian sport specifically, in which there is a trough between those riders that are amateurs who are trying to become, or you know, amateur professionals who are trying to become elites, but there is this gap, which is that the people at the very, very top, they participate in the most events, they get the best sponsors, both in terms of people who sponsor them as well as the brands that sponsor them, and because they can continue to exist in the sport for a long period of time, because the horse is the physical athlete in many sense, and so that that gap gets wider and wider and wider, and so for the athletes that are at the level below, who are trying to break into that top level, it gets harder and harder and harder.
Speaker 4:So as, as you have basically and from what I understand, you've made a career out of really training both sides of that, but especially a lot of people who are on the precipice of breaking into that elite level, what have you noticed over the years in your career what's changed in that space? Has it gotten easier to break through? Has it gotten harder to break through? Is there anything like things you've noticed to be the consistent patterns of what makes or breaks that problem?
Speaker 1:so I I think that we're a little bit in a culture of nobody understands how to start at the bottom anymore, if that makes sense. Everybody I mean especially sort of a little bit in our, in our youth they all want to get to the finish line before they've even sort of crossed the start line. And I mean, look, the horse world is not for the faint of heart. I mean the setbacks when the setbacks are big, they're huge and you have to have some serious gumption to keep going forward. And and you also have like I think that kids would be very surprised by if they went to be a working student somewhere and they had just a little bit of talent, but they had a tremendous work ethic.
Speaker 1:I think that there are a lot of riders that are I'm not going to say they're necessarily on their way out, but you know the Phillips and like they can't ride forever, and I do think that there would be opportunities presented to them. I mean, look at Lauren Nicholson, lauren Kiefer I mean that all came from working with the O'Connor's and now they have Jackie Mars as an owner. Hannah Sue is the same way like they worked really hard, they were really talented, they had coaches that believed in them, that coaches that helped them gain some sponsorship, gain some ownership, but it's not going to be handed to you just because you can sit on a horse and I don't think that talent is always what wins at the end of the day. I think hard work will always beat talent, but talent and hard work will beat everything.
Speaker 4:I'm coming as I didn't come up through, you know, pony Club. I didn't come up riding, so I'm a bit of an outsider gotta put you through Jill's bootcamp yeah go, I won't survive.
Speaker 3:I'd pay to see that.
Speaker 1:I mean, I might pay to see that too so do you think that is so?
Speaker 4:that description of how those riders break through and make it to the top level right, that you just gave it makes a lot of sense. Right? It is a natural Darwinism. It's a natural attrition of those who are willing to work hard, to network, to get into the right stable, to get into the right groom roles, into the right training roles in the right place, to get access to the right people to succeed. Yeah, but that but that does drastically limit the paths available to success, which drastically limits the amount of people who are going to be in that top level which you know.
Speaker 4:Less people at the top level ultimately creates a less competition and therefore like less pressure for everyone to up their game. What would be your opinion if there was an off, if you figure out a way to basically get more people to that level and they didn't have to come through these bottlenecks or these very specific pipelines, like an example of that could be in the show jumping space, there's a lot of money that comes into it from various channels, but in the inventing space there aren't. So if there was a revenue stream available somehow that allowed up and coming riders to just have the funds to afford the time off work to train all the time, to afford to pay the trainer to come to them, to afford them to get the best horses without having to be in a very specific channel that gets your access to a very specific owner, etc. Like do you think that'd be good for the sport or bad for the sport?
Speaker 1:you know, I don't think that you necessarily need to have the best horses. I think the problem starts with these teenagers okay.
Speaker 1:I think it's you know. I mean I do like, I mean I know that I had, you know, an extremely talented young rider and I got after her one day and I remember her mom calling me and you know was just like, but I said I just feel like she doesn't really want it, jill, she really does want it, of course she wants it. Not everybody's going to be you and hang on one second. I gotta plug this in sure.
Speaker 1:I thought it was plugged in. Let me, I don't want to lose you guys. You know not everybody's gonna be you. You know the, the way that you were and and I said, well then, don't tell me that she really wants it yeah like I really, really wanted it. So don't tell me that she really wants it, because I know what it takes to really. I know what really wanting it entails how did the mother take that feedback?
Speaker 1:well, I mean, she continued being my student for many years, so, um, and ultimately, you know, I mean she was one that decided when she went to college she quit riding yeah, yeah, and you could call it, you could see it yeah, I mean I, I mean I knew it like I. I mean I can see the forest through the trees. I have seen a few people out there with the work ethic that it takes um. You know I haven't I had another student that, like Lauren, lauren knew that you guys know yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, she's a very, very hard worker and she doesn't have all the you know channels to get top horses, but if she keeps working at it, you know she's young and if she keeps working at it and keeps promoting herself and keeps sort of driving on, and I think she could get there hey, are you an equestrian event organizer looking to put on your next clinic or schooling show?
Speaker 2:Pegasus is about to release its new event management system, which is a modern platform that makes it easy to accept entry registrations, receive digital signatures for your event paperwork, as well as manage the logistics and scheduling of your event. You can even digitally showcase your vendors and sponsors, so that brands have much better visibility than the traditional logo on a fence. Pegasus has made it easy to run an event from start to finish, with features designed for everyone involved, especially the riders, who can now easily register and receive real-time updates. Gone are the days of running your event through facebook or tech from the 90s. Check out the launch of the Pegasus event management system at wwwthepegasusapp.
Speaker 3:That is wwwthepegasusapp was getting these top sponsors such a crucial component back then as it seems to be right now. It's almost like to your point, like there's this huge divide and people that are trying to make it to the top and then get the sponsors to be interested and help them out. Was that just as necessary in the exact same narrative back, you know, in 1996? No, why do you think it's changed so much?
Speaker 1:well, the sport has grown tremendously and we're just in a different, we're just in a different age, because I don't even know that, I don't even know how much it actually matters, except for sort of appearances. We're in a very different world now, you know. I mean I see people all the time now that are like, oh, sponsored by Devacue, like they've written at the training level and they're. They basically are getting these. You know they have these like little partnership deals and whatnot, that basically they get $500 off of a $5,000 saddle and it's a partnership, which is great, I mean it. It's great that they feel like they're sort of a part of something and all of that.
Speaker 1:But it's I don't know how I want to put this. I think sometimes you have to be careful with those things because it's not, it's not reality. If that makes sense, like it's not a sponsorship, it's, you know, it's a, it's a little thing, I think it's great for them. But I think also you have to be careful about things that are not complete reality. When you're dealing with teenagers and young adults. When they're, they have to look in the mirror and they know what reality is, if that makes sense. Do you understand what I'm saying so, they feel like, oh, I'm being sponsored by Devacue, blah, blah blah, but they still are struggling to pay the bills. Their riding is lacking. They don't know how to go to the bigger coaches and get help.
Speaker 3:It's like the fundamentals are missing.
Speaker 1:The fundamentals are missing. It can't be all about social media and all of that stuff, I think. Sometimes it's just the fundamentals of writing have started lacking and it's become like a popularity contest a little bit on social media.
Speaker 4:Right. If I was to push against that from the other side, I would see that as like they're doing this because they aren't good enough to attract sponsors and owners that can help them afford the lifestyle and it's their only means of trying to make some money. So I mean, how else are those people who haven't got access to the resources they need able to remain relevant in this sport and can continue to participate if they don't exercise those options?
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm not saying not to exercise those options. I just worry sometimes that people inwardly think that it means more than it means, yeah, and they're not actually the riders that are at home doing the work that needs to be done. The sad part is, listen, it is an expensive thing to be involved in and not everybody's going to be able to afford it. It just that, just kind of, is what it is.
Speaker 4:Sort of a risky thing to say in a live podcast, but Jen and I have talked about this before is that in the equestrian industry there seems to, if you go on Facebook and you look at a lot of the conversations and stuff, there seems to be a lot of people who participate in the equestrian sports, who feel entitled to be able to participate because they want to be able to participate, and lying to themselves about the fact that there's just no getting around the fact that this is bloody expensive.
Speaker 3:And I think because it's probably easy to go ahead and buy a $600 horse without really realizing all the other costs that come into it if you want to compete and be good.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and then? So what happens is that the reason that we pay a lot of attention to it is because our technology is in the event management space. We spend a lot of time speaking to event managers and or show managers and they talk about what they struggle with is like we don't make a lot of money on our horse shows. I mean, in show jumping, yes, they might, but, like you know, in the other disciplines they may make one or $2,000 profit, if not lose money. But if they raise their entry prices or their stall prices by a little bit, there's this huge backlash from their clients, which are the exhibitors, about the fact that they're gouging in for prices and they're raising their prices and all this sort of stuff, and it's just kind of like for us, who's, you know, is looking at the perspective of trying to sympathize with the show manager, is like their business.
Speaker 4:They need to do this in order for the sports and the events to continue, and so I think there is a world in which more people who compete at an amateur level or even at the senior level need to be just be more realistic of themselves. It's like the world isn't fair. Life isn't fair. It's going to be expensive. If you want to participate in this, it's going to be expensive. If you want to be able to afford this, you're going to have to make sacrifices in other parts of your life if you really want it that badly. And it's just one of the immutable, unfair facts of the world, which is that, like horses are expensive, and the people who run the events, the people who build the brands, the people who run the training, the people who build the run the boarding bonds, they can't continue to provide you the services that you need to participate in this sport If they can't make money out of it, and at some point something's got to give somewhere.
Speaker 3:You can't have a world-class facility but also pay a little amount of money Like that world-class facility with the really good footing and the nice stabling, which are all things that people are immediately getting on Facebook and complaining about if it's not sufficient.
Speaker 1:I feel like I'm a bit of a realist right. I can go look at a $2 million house, but I cannot afford to buy it. I mean, this is like. This is reality, this is the real world. Now I can maybe change my career or work harder for a goal of buying that $2 million house.
Speaker 1:Not every person should be a professional in the horse world. There are lots of people who should go out, become a real estate agent. Go get a job. Get a job that makes you, you know, affords you the right to have the horse that you want to have, to compete where you want to compete. But again, I think it starts young. I mean I had to clean my mother's house once a week because she had to get rid of the housekeeper too, that the person that came in to clean the house in order to help me with the horse. They were willing to pay for one lesson a week. If I wanted extra lessons, then I worked for that coach. So I worked for that coach every weekend to get an extra lesson. I muckstalls at the barn to pay for half of my board. I mean I was expected to participate in the expenses of this horse if I wanted the horse.
Speaker 1:I did not have parents that were like, oh, we'll get you a puppy if you're going to take it out to go to the bathroom. And then a week later you know I'm not taking it out to go to the bathroom and they're like, it's okay. I have parents that would be like guess what? See this puppy? Puppy's gone.
Speaker 3:I don't know if my parents were quite a savage, but they were similar in that it's like oh, you want this horse, well, you're going to come out in the morning and you're going to clean it stall and you're going to feed them, you're going to turn them out and you're going to ride, and then you're going to come back at the end of the day after school. Honestly, horses took priority over homework, truly and go back, bring them in, feed them, do the same thing the next day. It was every single day.
Speaker 1:It's a lot of work Like it. You know, it's just, it's a lot of work and it's a lot of struggle. And I mean, listen, all these professionals, you know, I mean, unless they have really big owners and whatnot, they're all living their lives on a shoestring.
Speaker 4:Yeah. So on that point, considering that even at the top levels, a lot of them are living their life on a shoestring as you've sat around at prestigious events with the best in the world discussing this sort of stuff, if you have over a few years do you have any theories on what the sports I mean? I know it's different from discipline to discipline, but do you have any theories on what the sports could be doing differently or could be doing better to make the career of a professional rider more sustainable?
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, I certainly think in eventing it has gotten a lot better. We actually get some televised coverage of things like Kentucky, and I think eventing has always been a little bit difficult because it is not a spectator friendly sport, let's face it. You know it's not. It's not like show jumping, where you, you know, sit by the arena and you can sip your champagne and watch. If you, you have to really love the sport of eventing to go to Kentucky and, you know, walk around the cross country course when it's pouring rain, and there's not, there's not that many people that are dying to do that. I think it has gotten a lot better throughout the years.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think that sometimes some of these riders who are very good on social media they're beautiful, they're well dressed, they're really tech savvy, techy, techy, they're techy, techy I wouldn't be going. I mean, if I were them, like I wouldn't necessarily be going after saddle companies and leather companies. Like I'd be going after, like, mainstream brands, like if I'm really into fashion and I'm a super good rider and whatnot, I'm going to pitch myself to a major brand as somebody who can be an influencer for them. That's a great way of making money. I mean it's sort of using what you have in a different avenue to create revenue for what it is that you want to do.
Speaker 3:Like if golf has been able to get people to line up in the middle of Augusta, Georgia, and sit there all day and watch, basically, in my opinion, paint dry, which is golf. Sorry, Eric golfer, chill, but I just don't find it exciting. And it's fascinating, but if they're able to get a ton of money and outside brands to come and do that cross country is a hell of a lot more exciting. I mean just objectively, you've got these 28 jumps galloping. Each one is you never really know what you're going to get. So yeah, I think that's a really good idea.
Speaker 1:But golf is a much more accessible sport to the masses. It just is. I mean, you need some clubs and some balls and you're good to go.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's like the average guy, probably golfs.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, well, I mean half of the eventing guys golf all the time. I mean I mean box out golfing like five days a week. So it's you know. I mean that's the thing. It's just, it's more mainstream, it's more accessible, it's you know, and so it gets a broader base, so it gets a more broad coverage. But this is a little bit of what I'm saying. Is that, why haven't we gone after Nike to do an equestrian line, to do equestrian shirts, to do some equestrian hats? Why haven't we gone after mainstream people to do some of that stuff?
Speaker 4:I asked the same question again, like as someone who's coming to the sport is an outsider. I asked the exact same question. I'm like you've got a consistent audience that's like majoritvly women, right? So like it's such a layup for any mainstream company to be like oh, these is a huge amount of women who ride horses. Their needs are relatively straightforward and consistent. They're all united by their passion and devotion to horses and equestrian sports. This is an absolute layer, like why are the only main brands that exist in this market are equestrian brands? Why are they not being completely squashed by the big dogs who just basically need to hire like one small team of equestrian professionals to design the garments and then mass produce them, market them, sell them at that level? I just don't understand why it hasn't. It's so obvious.
Speaker 3:I remember at Maryland Five Star and I think this is when we saw UGEL there was an A-Lo tent, lululemon's competitor. I remember that they were giving away some stuff. I never made it over there, but I don't think that they went to Maryland Five Star last year it was definitely 2021, but they at least had heard about it. So did you see that tent and have you seen? If you did, have you seen any more marketing from them? Cause I thought that was a pretty significant brand to be at an eventing competition.
Speaker 4:They had the idea and obviously it didn't pay off, so they didn't come back, which is a whole new conversation about why that didn't work out, but they obviously had the same idea.
Speaker 3:Like why hasn't Lululemon broken in? They could easily.
Speaker 4:Half of people ride in Lululemon anyway.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I just put some pads on it and call it a day.
Speaker 1:But also I mean even more than that, right Like I mean riders for something like Lululemon. Like I'm at the gym all the time and there are riders in there. I mean riders need to stay fit in other ways as well, but the thing is that you know whether it be somebody. Hey, you know, you guys could have a new job, you guys could get some sponsorship going for some event people. I mean you guys would be great at going after mainstream companies.
Speaker 4:Well, we're working on it, Jill. We're working on figuring out how to basically bring that economy into the question space.
Speaker 3:It's just a layup, I mean, to your point like why doesn't Nike have an equestrian branch? Why doesn't Lululemon, even Monster or Red Bull? I mean, this is an extreme sport we're talking about. So, why aren't they all over it?
Speaker 4:Yeah, out of interest. So we basically talked about, when it comes to, you know, amateur pros. Essentially there's two, there's two parts here. There's the rider, who essentially works in a training barn, is training full time to train, increase their skills and then training other people's horses on the side in order to pay the bills and then buy themselves time to then continue their own training. And then you've got those who are like half-assing it and they're out on Instagram and wasting their time chasing small deals that don't really move the needle but feels like progress.
Speaker 3:I feel like that's like the average influencer, by the way. Yeah, it's like they're making 5% of hard mics lemonade.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Because they're, you know, an influencer for hard mics. You're not making anything. Crunch the numbers.
Speaker 4:So those are the kind of the two parts. Have you noticed if there was someone listening to this who is at that point now, who's trying to figure out how do I figure out, how to get to the next level and what courses of actions are available to me? Have you noticed with your students over the years what patterns have tended to be the most successful?
Speaker 1:God, I mean it's listen, I'm always going to go back to hard work, like I'm just always going to go back to that. I see people like really good top equestrian riders right, really good, top professionals. Do you know what they would give their eye tooth to have some like kid come in there that wants to bust a hum and ride horses and clean stalls and do all the things that we all had to do to become the best? When I was a working student, I never stopped. I never asked for a day off, I just kept going. I didn't want a day off, I wanted to be in the barn. I was the first one in the barn and the last one out.
Speaker 4:All the other students hated me Are you saying that that personality trait is more rare today than it was back then?
Speaker 1:I think it's rare in general, but yes, I think it's much. I think, yeah, I think it's much more rare today. I think parents are soft on their kids.
Speaker 3:I can see Jill and Ocala on her beautiful, her beautiful garden with hopefully the new herbs have come in with the potted plants. But get off my lawn, Get these days back.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean listen, I see other professionals that don't necessarily think the way that I do and think that working students should be paid, but they're also I mean, these are people that have. I mean, we do have some professionals that I'm not saying that they don't work, but they've never had to work because they have such extremely rich owners that fund their every whim. I'm not saying whether or not a working student deserves to be paid. I think is very it's very individual, based on what they're getting for what they're working, how much they're working, who they're working for. But education costs money.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and anything that you do. I mean that is just the bottom line. If you have somebody I mean I have an Ivy League education in horses I mean I can promise you I probably could have gone to Harvard 12 times For the amount of money I've spent on my education. So if I have a working student and I'm giving them horses to ride and lessons and just the education of learning how a barn functions and runs, and that is worth money.
Speaker 3:Is that a common thing? Right now that people are talking about that? Your average working student should be paid, because when I was a working student it was 20 years ago, whatever it was and I had accommodations, I had amazing instruction. I think she was a four star trainer. I was going training, so she was great. I was riding her incredible horses. I was there working my butt off from 4 am till night and, to your point, I loved it and there was. If I had asked to be paid for that, I think everyone would have laughed. I was definitely the one that was benefiting in the situation, even though I was working really hard, but what I was getting from her and the value I was getting from her was priceless.
Speaker 1:Yeah, now listen, here's the bottom line. Again we go back to not everybody can afford to be a full-time working student.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right. So if you can't afford to be a full-time working student, then perhaps you should go. I would go to that same trainer that I really wanted to work with and I would say, are you hiring? Like, are you hiring Because now I'm learning everything except for necessarily riding. And perhaps if you go to that person and say, are you hiring? And you work your ass off, you work and work and work, you think that person isn't gonna give you an opportunity. After you're there for a month you are now sitting on horses, I guarantee you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, it's the exact same thing with the corporate world.
Speaker 1:You show you're willing to do the good work and you do it with a smile on your face and you do extra, You're gonna end up riding horses for that person. But that's a little bit of what I'm saying. Like nobody wants to start at the bottom.
Speaker 3:They just want to get to the opportunity at the top.
Speaker 3:I mean, what do you say?
Speaker 3:This is just like the corporate world, which is stuff that we've talked about a lot, which is so many people, when they graduate from college or whatever it might be, they want to just go to the high-paying job and they want the person, the CEO at this big tech company to just go ahead and hire them, have this well-paying position, just more prestigious job and they feel entitled to that, whereas they'd probably get way more experience and have way more opportunities working for, say, a startup, or being even an executive assistant to a CEO and being able to get all of that experience, even if they're not getting paid that much, but being right there on the front lines with them working really hard. And now that person who they're working for is going to be more likely to promote them within the company or recommend them to other CEOs and other companies. So it's like put in a time, don't think about the money, just do what you can to get that experience, and then that hard work is going to pay off in dividends after you've put in your dues.
Speaker 1:I can't you know. It'd be interesting to do the research on like how many really really successful business people started as interns, or actually good interns, and they don't get paid. I mean, they might get like a little bit of a compensation, a little bit of food money, but they're there for the experience 100%.
Speaker 4:Yeah, absolutely. So this kind of leads me to the last thing I kind of want to touch on today is come on, let's bring this back to Akala, to Akala, ocala, ocala, ocala sorry my accent Ocala.
Speaker 1:Sam, you can say it however you want Wait here's a question, Joe.
Speaker 3:We were talking about this before. Is it the name C-R-A-I-G? How do you pronounce it? Is it Craig?
Speaker 4:Craig, yeah, craig. That's, that's offensive. It's, it's Craig. Everyone else in the world calls it Craig, but Americans for some reason bastardize it to Craig.
Speaker 4:Craig anyway a calo. So, interestingly, we've been talking. Everything we've been talking about so far has been around the topic of you know how much, how expensive is to participate in the horse world, and if you can't afford it, then you've got to basically pay for it with your time and effort in order to make up that deficit. So Now that you you've been living you've been living in a calo for how long now?
Speaker 1:I Moved here in 2020, so almost three years right, so three years.
Speaker 4:So Since you've been there I suppose like I mean you were kind of the start of the wave of Cala's been on this huge growth cycle and then, especially with work coming into the picture, and now that you are real to there, you know you, you're meeting a lot of the people and you're seeing the property prices go up and you're understanding the property market. How has a cala changed in the last three years, and even like what you understand it to have been like before you move there, and what role is wek playing in all that?
Speaker 1:Oh god, I mean. Well Understand that. I've been coming to Florida to like this area since I was 18 years old for the winter season, so I have seen Ocala. I mean there was some fast food chains, there was a nightclub called cloud nine.
Speaker 4:As good some good knots of cloud nine.
Speaker 3:Hey, let me, let me have a drink. I'm going to the Olympics, okay.
Speaker 1:And you know so it was just you know is basically horse farms. Cloud nine at the horse and hound was probably here. I've been horse and hound was here actually for many, many years and so Even before sort of wek came or started, there was tremendous growth. But since wek. So I moved here just before wek opened and, yeah, I mean it's like living in a in a different, on a different planet I think, because it's starting to even in the offseason it's starting to just Ocala because of wek, just because of sort of the name and the they're putting in shopping now at wek. They're gonna do concerts there.
Speaker 1:I mean it's a lot more than horses going on at the world equestrian center. It's attracting all the sudden, where Ocala wasn't on non horse people's radar, it's now on their radar because it is actually really it's well located in Florida, right, it's sort of in the middle, so you're not too worried about hurricanes and things like that. But it's an hour and a bit drive to Orman Beach, daytona. It's very easy to get anywhere that you want to go. Prices are still More reasonable. Let's just say that then if you were to go, say, west Palm Beach you know things like that Sarasota, we're still. We're still a little bit down in in market from those places. So but, that being said, I mean I know how much property values Rows because of the world equestrian center, because I'm a homeowner three miles down the road, so I'm happy.
Speaker 3:Are you finding a lot of people buying up investment properties to then put on, say, airbnb, because of all the new traffic that's coming to whack?
Speaker 1:There is a tremendous amount of the Airbnb here now. I mean, I remember three or four years ago trying to find an Airbnb in Ocala was like Ridiculously hard because they're just weren't any, and now it's. You know, it's actually quite a good business to be in is to sort of property manage some Airbnb's here. I have a friend who who does it, and so anytime that I have anybody looking at rentals I sort of turn them to her to manage so you're a homeowner, so it's good for you in that sense.
Speaker 4:But is this I mean the first? The first 90% of this conversation was all about the fact that horses are expensive at most. People in the horse industry Are scraping by. This is a horse mecca and now it's getting more and more expensive. So what are their fractures? Are there fractures starting to appear in a color between the horse professionals who kind of were being priced out of their own land or their own or their own Community because it's just too expensive to work in that live in a color anymore?
Speaker 1:No, I don't know. I don't think so. I mean to be honest with you. Most of the true professionals were smart and they got in while the getting was good.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So they're all, they're all quite happy with, with sort of when they got in so I know I don't think so.
Speaker 1:It hasn't gotten to that point yet. It hasn't. It hasn't risen. It hasn't risen to that point and I don't know that it necessarily ever will, mostly because we are a very big farmland preservation County in Marion County. So it will always, whenever you have farmland preservation, it will always keep the taxes down and it does keep land value to to a little bit of a restriction as far as what you can get, and and we're really lucky that way and and I and I hope it stays that way, to be honest with you, so that it can stay sort of the horse capital of the world and Nobody really wants Marion County turned into a bunch of developments.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they probably don't want to see it turn into something like Wellington, which is very manicured and built up, but there isn't really that old-school Florida feeling down in Wellington.
Speaker 1:I mean here you know our farmland, anything that's agricultural it has to be ten acres or more. You cannot divide it past. Then you can put two houses on ten acres but you can't divide the parcels. So ten acres is pretty much your minimum, unless you were grandfathered in or something like that. So we're really lucky that way. And and they're also like there are there are even bigger restrictions on some land because if you have a, if you have a huge part let's say you have a hundred acres and somebody back in the day Did a one-time ag split but they just decided to split it in half. So now you've bought 50 acres thinking you're gonna turn it into five ten acre parcels.
Speaker 1:A lot of times Marion County won't let you do that because it was already split once off of the bigger parcel. Oh, okay, that's good, yeah, but it keeps. Like I said. I mean everybody, you know You've got your ag exemption and stuff like that here. So Everybody that has land there's still, you know, marrying. First of all, marion County is massive, right? I mean Marion County is like one of the biggest counties in Florida and Ocala is sort of growing outward towards Anthony and Citra and Reddick and Morriston and Dunnell, and so people who Can't necessarily afford to be an Ocala proper are starting to buy properties out in those areas, realizing. I mean I can buy a farm in Dunnell in for three quarters of what it would cost me to be an Ocala and it's only 20 minutes to the world equestrian center.
Speaker 3:Yeah that makes sense. Are there hotels and whatnot coming up, because it does seem like there's so much more traffic? Obviously, airbnb's have increased, but where are people staying if they're not staying at WAC?
Speaker 1:Well, you know, they're building another hotel at WAC. So there's another big, big hotel going up at WAC that is Going to be a little bit less pricey than the one that's already there. It's going to be a little bit more sort of in the normal price range of hotels. I mean there are plenty of hotels around Ocala, mostly down on 200, one or two exits south of the world equestrian center exit just like chains just chains.
Speaker 3:Yeah, are you finding? Since before WAC came there, this was a pretty big throw-away breeding place outside of Kentucky. Obs is there. You've got tons of thoroughbred farms. Are you seeing some cross pollination, if you will, between those two worlds, or do they still kind of keep to themselves and that they're over in? The industry is still in that part of Ocala, and then this word horse industry is on this part.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I haven't. I think they stay pretty separate. I think, if anything you know, the the sort of equestrian world dives into their world more like. I go to OBS all the time Because it's so entertaining for me. I mean I love going and watching the sales and getting a beer.
Speaker 4:Getting a beer at that little hot, it's great little Tiki hot yeah.
Speaker 1:Actually OBS just opened up a big card room. They just opened up like a big poker room.
Speaker 4:Oh really.
Speaker 1:Have high-end card games there and that sounds fun.
Speaker 4:That sounds great.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we went to Ocala and it's probably been like a year, because my parents live outside of it and I'm from Winter Park originally, so we would go up to Ocala and take lessons and rocking horse, I think, was the closest facility at that time, because Florida horse park yeah, florida horse park didn't exist at when. I was competing but we went to the vaults. Is it the vaults?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've been a vault. The vaults, yeah, I love the vaults, obviously, horse and hound, great stomping grounds.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's great. Is it still bumping? Is it still like the place to be.
Speaker 1:You know, I'm very, I'm kind of always surprised by the horse and hound, because I, we all sort of talk about the fact that we kind of expect them to, we expected them to sort of change a little bit, and Because, you know, they had the competition of whack and and they were like, no, we're gonna keep it. Old school People are in there, but I mean, it's, yes, it's, it's always crowded.
Speaker 3:I love that. I hope they know you by name, right, and they have your drink waiting for your arrival.
Speaker 1:I actually don't go there that often. Oh, I Know, I know, I know I've been trying to go downtown a little bit more. Downtown's getting pretty cool. Here I'm telling you, like we've got some great restaurants going in and bars going in and just east of town they're putting in this whole if they took over a radio station, it's like a big warehouse and they're putting this whole complex of bars and restaurants and Jill, sell out.
Speaker 4:Now that you're in real estate, just getting a little bit fancy.
Speaker 1:No fancy, you have no idea.
Speaker 4:I Well, that's been fantastic. Thank you very much for joining us today.
Speaker 3:It's really interesting, I know next time we have this, I want to see the garden. And have you gotten the herbs? Are the herbs in yet?
Speaker 1:No, I have not got the herbs yet. I told her, because she's got, I am, I am going, I am going to work on it. But while I have you really quick, since we're, since we're on here, we, you guys, you gotta see it.
Speaker 3:This is MTV. Mtv Cribs of Jill.
Speaker 4:Oh, you are getting a little bit fancy. I want to get a cloud nine.
Speaker 1:I think somebody. I think somebody was shot there and Ten years ago some bad things went down in cloud nine. Nine is no longer.
Speaker 3:That's every what a problem really.
Speaker 1:There are some really like if you guys come back, you're welcome to stay with me, and there are some real Like downtown's pretty, pretty cool. Now there's some really great places to go out.
Speaker 3:You know, probably they are for Thanksgiving. I have to figure out those plans, but we'll be back soon. Like I said, my parents are there. Mom would love to leave. It's too hot for her dad will never leave. Lord has got everything for warm, warm weather lovers like him. But right, they tell you we're currently in Austin, but we'll be back in Ocala soon, for sure. Yeah but be careful, what you asked for. You'll just see us with a suitcase and a dog, and we won't leave.
Speaker 4:What we both your dog's, called we both. Weevils cute, we did. You get the name weevil.
Speaker 1:So her, her mother's name is wiggle and her father's name is Wesley, so that half answers my question. I was thinking about a W name and it just popped into my head. You know, like you're king, you know those weevils, wobbles, things. Yeah but like I, I it just popped into my head, so weevil it was. I didn't, honestly, I didn't think much into it. It's not like naming a child, okay, where you like, spend months thinking about it. I just was like, oh, we'll call her weevil.
Speaker 4:Well, thanks very much, jill, and no time. No doubt we'll be in touch again soon.
Speaker 3:Yeah, thanks, jill. This is Bob, take care, bye later.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for listening to the latest episode of the Pegasus podcast. As you heard from our mid-roll, we are also releasing an equestrian event management software platform. Now it's easier than ever to host, sign up and sponsor for any equestrian event in the world, thanks to all the features of the Pegasus app. To sign up, go to our homepage at thepegasusapp. That is T-h-e-p-e-g-a-s-u-s dot app. Thank you again and see you next time.